The Russia-Ukraine war is heading towards its third week, and was beginning to drop off Australia’s flood-drenched front pages, when the hideous bombing of a maternity hospital in Mariupol (City of Mary) put the war back at the centre of discussion. The event will take Western emotions to a new height.
Any critical inquiry around a charged event such as an alleged (and likely true) maternity hospital bombing is liable to be met with increasing anger and impatience. That is especially so because of NATO leaders’ unwillingness to be drawn into the war — even blocking the transfer of fighter jets by NATO members — while our mainstream media simultaneously invoke World War II, and affirm our honour, whatever our actions, or lack thereof.
When the final push on Kyiv begins, this will surely all get much much worse. There seems little chance it will not, with Putin determined not to be defeated by a resistance that, it now seems undeniable, has surprised him and his generals. Surely, it seems, if they had thought the war would go this way, they would have waged the war differently.
With this new stage has come the closing down of any real debate about the war in the West. There was never much, a mere flurry at the start, and now there is almost none. Russia’s invasion is brutal and a violation of international law, but that does not mean that its stated reasons — that this was the last possible moment to prevent an expansion of NATO into a territory considered part of “Greater Russia” — does not have a rationale behind it.
Crucially, this is a rationale that the West could reasonably be expected to recognise as real, and likely to lead to war if transgressed. Any moral assessment of the war has to consider how wanton and irresponsible the West’s actions have been in escalating the situation to this pitch.
Yet it is this last step that has been shut down in discussion in Western mainstream media, and with near unanimous support from many journalists. The opinion pages have been tripping over each other to publish multiple versions of an identikit article, one which equates the “rights” of states with the legal and human rights of individuals in rule-of-law regimes that uphold as such.
That is an elementary category error which confuses a legal regime — where the state has a monopoly on authorised enforceable violence — with an international system, where “law” is a framework governing multiple violent players only for as long as they agree to its jurisdiction. There has even been a whiff of identity politics around the situation, as if Ukraine is not being allowed to be itself — hence the easy way in which such identity politics has become joined to the Ukrainian cause.
The mainstream media, in such situations, usually allows a smattering of realpolitik writers from the right to dissent, and an even smaller smatteringette of left writers. That has almost vanished this time. I’ve seen nothing in the News Corp pages of the “hard realpolitik” position (as separate from neutral coverage of the war’s progress — quite a different thing), and only a single article, by Gray Connolly in The Age/SMH. However, a distinctly left view — that NATO’s expansion was an act of imperialism qualitatively greater than Russian “imperialism” and supported by a compliant Ukrainian elite who, it now seems, were given promises of support that have not been kept — of that view, there is nothing at all.
With any sort of debate having been shut down, a single logic to the conflict is then enforced by a series of similar articles which argue that the “far left” and the “far right” have some common ground as regards with “support” for Putin. This is utterly untrue, and usually asinine in its assertion. The Western far right has always had active support for Putin the man, as a personification of a unitary conservative spirit of inherited truth, against progressive delusion. The recent America First Political Action Conference (AFPAC) in the US — a white-supremacist alternative to the “conservative” Conservative Political Action Conference (CPAC) — began with the audience chanting “Go Putin!”
But to say this is confined to the far right is nonsense. Donald Trump’s admiration and support for Putin have acted as a bridge to the middle right; there you will find George W Bush’s notorious quote from 2001: “I looked the man in the eye. I found him to be very straightforward and trustworthy … I was able to get a sense of his soul; a man deeply committed to his country.”
The right’s admiration for Putin the man has been longstanding.
There has been nothing like this on the left, despite the attempt to argue for a unity using gimmicky notions such as “horseshoe theory” — that the left and right reach around to touch, branching off a position of pro-capitalism and pro-globalism held to be the “sensible centre”.
Most of the charge that the far left is “pro Putin” comes from an attack on a single article by John Pilger, where Pilger has nothing to say about Putin the man, and simply notes the alternative case against the (pretty fuzzy) Western one — Pilger’s case (and those of others) being that a reduced set of demands regarding limits on NATO expansion and Ukraine’s neutrality was presented by Russia to NATO days before the invasion began, and rejected out of hand.
There are relatively few on the left who do grant such legitimacy to Russia’s case, and none of them praise Putin the man. There are barely any fully pro-Russian advocates in Australia. Tim Anderson, a former lecturer in political economy at Sydney University, is the only one, and he has no particular words, kind or otherwise, for Putin that I have seen. The Greens and various socialist groups have denounced the invasion, and the Maoists at C21st Left (i.e. Albert Langer and a couple of others) see the war as a radical moment by which Ukrainian resistance will topple Putin, the new tsar.
The “far-left, far-right” link-up is simply a confection of wilfully conformist and lazy journalists who don’t want the facts to get in the way of easy propaganda.
But the mainstream media fix is in, and a comprehensive groupthink, verging on a soft totalitarian impulse, is now the norm. Stan Grant’s decision to throw out an audience member of Q+A because he was advocating “violence against a sovereign state” was a weak and pathetic failure of commitment to free speech. It’s a perfectly legitimate position to advocate violence in many circumstances; if it is so abhorrent, it should be easy to argue against (and if the rule were applied during the Iraq War it would have been a very empty studio indeed).
Tim Costello, seeking a spiritual rationale for the conflict, said in Guardian Australia of the NATO expansion issue: “We have heard a lot of ranting from Putin about the threat to Russia from NATO encirclement and justifications for the invasion to denazify Ukraine and stop their genocide of Russians. This is all propaganda and nonsense.”
Six words. Thanks for that considered analysis of geopolitics, Tim. Though an intelligent and reflective person, Costello has obviously succumbed, like so many, to the need for the meaning of this war to not be complex or messy (and coincides with a near total lack of free-ranging and critical analysis in the Guardian, a further example of its decline into conformism and humanitarian “storytelling”).
Paul Mason’s argument, reproduced in Crikey, that we should abandon any critical discussion of NATO’s expansion and the West’s wars, is a secular version of such, the clue given by Mason’s anecdote of travelling to Moscow in 1990 with tiny Trotskyist sect Workers Power, who believed that with Stalinism defeated there would be an appetite for real Marxism. The same spirit pervades Mason’s call to simply stop speaking about Western hypocrisy, cynicism or strategy. Everyone wants this war to be about something other than it is.
For the decade leading up to this war, it was a commonplace of global politics discussion that admitting Ukraine and Georgia to NATO, or the possibility of such, would be an irresponsible act that would bring war closer. Everyone said it, from Chomsky to Kissinger (a roll call helpfully collected by Arnaud Bertrand).
Yet now this position is seen to be irrelevant, subversive or disgraceful. One has seen this happen before, but it never ceases to amaze — the sudden huddling into groupthink, the pathetic willingness to toe the official line.
One has to remind oneself that some people are driven into journalism or writing by strong convictions; others precisely by the lack of such. They are empty and they need meaning to fill them from outside. They seek large organisations, and never let themselves get into a position of dissent from the West’s position. Most of them, ironically, would prosper in the unified state-media frame of somewhere like Putin’s Russia.
Given that the West’s actions may have started this war — by giving Russia, as a state, reduced options for its own survival, that made the decision to invade a prominent one — it is the West’s actions that deserve scrutiny. Did Western leaders make promises to Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy that we have not kept, and never intended to? Would that explain his increasingly angry and exasperated tone around the lack of active support?
Whatever may have been promised, the West is clearly appeasing Russia now, and in doing so, contributing to the likelihood of its eventual victory. Chamberlain has been flayed by history for appeasement not because he negotiated with Hitler, but because he took war for Czechoslovakia off the table before the negotiations started, just as Western leaders have rushed to remove the possibility of an air-war — sorry, a “no-fly zone”. That move has made it difficult for Western moralists to square the circle: hence we have the spectacle of liberals demanding a NATO-Russia air war to maintain the necessary illusions.
Now, in the past 24 hours, Russia has offered renewed terms for immediate cessation of the war, which includes an anti-NATO clause in Ukraine’s constitution and the separation of the two Eastern republics. That is a deal that Ukraine should seriously consider, and that the West should consider urging Ukraine to consider.
But how would that now be possible, with the mythology in which we have enveloped the war? How can we think clearly about what is best for Ukrainians when their predicament has been drafted into the needs of a jaded West for stories of heroism and clear purpose?
One has to be able to tolerate paradox in these matters. If there’s a march in support of Ukraine, I’ll be in it — though I don’t see much point in organising one in Australia, as opposed to somewhere like London where it’s a different matter.
But as a journalist or a writer, one’s sacred duty is to free, clear, independent and critical thinking, to regard all media feeds with scepticism and scrutiny, to admit to the reality of needless human suffering — without letting emotion sway the faculty for critical thinking. In that respect, and as usual, the mainstream media have failed us. And the failure, like a flood, is creeping ever closer.
Thank you Mr Rundle!
Sober words for the intoxicated.
Tough luck if you’re Ukrainian and want to join Nato though, don’t you think?
And after children’s hospitals and maternity hospitals in Ukraine have been bombed, you can understand why Ukrainians might want to join Nato?
But I guess that if Putin uses chemical weapons on the Ukrainians that will be the West’s fault too, if not the Ukrainians’.
The strong do what they will and the weak bear what they must. The US has used that philosophy all over the world.
Yes as Putin *bombs a maternity and children’s hospital* AND *threatens chemical weapons* AND *nuclear weapons* the thing to really remember is how bad the US has been when it worked with Russian oligarchs and other supporters of dictatorship all over the world.
How old are you? No doubt young enough to get an award for just turning up. No such thing in the real world.
The US threatened the use of nuclear weapons in 1962 during the Cuban missile crisis so that set the precedent on warnings between nuclear powers. The US has said Russia “could” use chemical weapons. Russia has made no such threat and, sadly, Hospitals get bombed in wars (including by the West) for many reasons most of them unintentional.
How many Afghans were killed during “Operation Tuck Tail and Run” by the US as they launched a Drone Strike in a residential area which wpied out an extended family? The US “investigated” and said it was unintentional. Crickets from the West on that one too. Notice the pattern?
You might want to try reading the articles not just the headlines.
Hey lexusaussie, I sincerely hope you have a great day. Here are today’s talking points:
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/10/technology/disinformation-russia-ukraine.html
It is not obvious to me that criticism of Russia’s unjust invasion of Ukraine has anything to do with, or becomes as a result less unjust than, the US’s many hundreds of appalling interventions in other countries, with its unjust invasion of Iraq, with the fig-leaf of “disarming” Saddam Hussein of almost certainly non-existent weapons of mass destruction, the low point of a career of spreading death and destruction in other countries. I see no point whatever in saying that any other country that has a worse record overall of destructive intervention in other countries cannot oppose Putin’s destructive intervention in the Ukraine. I think every other country-whether untainted or not-should oppose a war that has no more justification than the war in Iraq.
Do you mran how trump siddled up to putin declaring him to be brilliant (of course not as brilliant as trump but we know that anyway), had secret meetings with him and how the legal and financial industries in the UK hooked up with putin’s mates and the oil princes?
I agree with you entirely. Trump was working with/for Putin. Trump was a traitor to the USA and the West, just like all the other people who prefer Putin’s dictatorship to their freedoms in their own home countries. Unfortunately there seem to be several people here who are like Trump, but from the other side of politics (Horseshoe Theory – Far Left and Far Right are really mates.)
It would seem you’ve missed the point of the article. I thought the job of media was to provide different perspectives of events in order to allow the public to assess them themselves and form their own, informed opinions. Filtering what the people are are allowed to hear is a dangerous precedent, one which previously only repressive governments have indulged in overtly.
I hope you were also just as horrified when the US Marines were shelling civilian areas in Fallujah with white phosphorous, and drones blowing up innocent women and children in markets and weddings in Afghanistan or Yemen. Or is it that those victims of war were less worthy of your pity?
Good hon you Guy for being brave enough to report a different perspective and let us form our own opinions based on your, and others reporting.
It is tough luck if you’re Ukrainian as they unfortunately find themselves the meat in yet another geopolitical sandwich. Crocodile tears are all they will get from the West.
And costly economic sanctions on Russia (that the Putin Republicans are already playing for their own political gain.) Not to mention weapons for the Ukrainians. And threats of war crime tribunals for Team Putin.
Or would you prefer that the West gives madman Putin more of an excuse for a nuclear war? His supporters here would probably blame the West for him pushing the button BTW.
I’m no fan boy of Putin. He’s got a shocking track record. I’m just saying that this whole thing is geopolitical brinkmanship that has got out of hand and the Ukrainians will bare the greatest cost.
I regard we MUST call his bluff. Bowing to his threat communicates: Have nukes, neuter NATO. This incentivizes nuclear proliferation and by both wannabe tyrants and for defence as we watch the horrific fate of Ukraine which gave theirs up and proliferation is itself a risk and potentially a greater one. We also greenlight invading countries that aren’t part of NATO ffs. Putin is more likely planning his next annexation than worried about sanctions as the oligarchs would have seen them coming and prepped imo and may also regard spoils from Ukraine outweigh losses from sanctions plus while they sell less oil they get more for it. I don’t read Putin as someone who gives a toss about being labelled as a war criminal – does anyone?? Is Kim eyeing off S Korea, Xi Taiwan??
The Crikey article re: Putin being rational and concludes we should not per course bow to his threats offers some comfort and remember too that threat of nuclear attack is the same for Putin as it is for us – what point restore an empire that is a radiated wasteland and have wealth that cannot be enjoyed in an underground bunker?? I’m with Kennedy during the Cuban missile crisis whose view was that submitting to a tyrant promised more of the same and that the only course was to act in accordance with our values come what may. It seems a no brainer to me as the downside of doing otherwise is clear and unpalatable while there is at least hope of a better result by honouring our values and standing up to the bully.
The brightest green light in recent times must have been in 2003, when a huge invasion took place, against the wishes of the UN. I’m sure Putin saw it, and has been watching since, as the perpetrators retired to their current roles as respected elder statesmen. Do they give a toss about being labelled war criminals? Not bloody likely.
Mate, I haven’t seen any credible evidence that the Ukrainians unanimously want to join NATO, and the French and Germans might also have something to say about that.
Only a buffoon wouldn’t be upset about a hospital for women and children being bombed.
Do you actually think the Russians are the only nation or alliance who’ve bombed a hospital?
Rhetoric isn’t difficult mate.
And to GRs point, if the msm actually reported evenly, or you could think critically, you wouldn’t be in such a lather.
The Ukrainians are certainly victims at the moment, but more importantly to our msm, they are ‘worthy victims’.
I doubt you know where the concept of ‘worthy victims’ comes from. You’d do well to learn.
Mate, you used the word “unanimously” so you’re safe. But it’s pretty clear that most Ukrainians have very strongly wanted to join Nato:
(mate) https://www.statista.com/chart/26933/ukrainians-survey-nato-eu/
Mate, you say that “only a buffoon…” then in the next sentence (mate) you trivialise the Russians bombing a hospital for women and children. Mate you’re doing the bombers work of making extreme violence normal.
I’m not a lather mate.
Mate as if I can’t work out what “worthy victims” means. The level of patronising from Putin’s Apologisers here is pretty extreme mate.
Did you major in Point Missing 101?
You claim to be are able to ‘..work out what “worthy victims” means…‘ so please regale we struggling also-rans with your definition of ‘unworthy victims’.
Berlin 1942, there you go!
The children’s hospital would not have been bombed if the West had done what Rundle proposes.
There are NO excuses for bombing a hospital of any sort. To suggest that the bombing of a hospital is somehow excused because it’s the ‘fault’ of the ‘west’ requires a dubious ethical framework.
In war you never know. Hospitals have, in the other wars, been used to hide troops and run operations from. Not saying thats the case here but until we know…..
No evidence, just sowing the seeds of doubt so we don’t bloodied women and children so clearly huh?
This is pretty much the most disgusting comment I’ve ever read online.
Says the clown that has never served a day in the military but “supports Ukraine”.
Go on, join up and see for yourself.
Who is excusing it? It is a war crime that should be prosecuted and punished, just like the hour-long sustained air attack by the US on the MSF hospital in Kunduz in 2015 was a war crime. But that attack, which destroyed the hospital and killed 42 people, was treated as a ‘mistake’ and no-one was prosecuted.
The point is, you can’t have a war without war crimes. That’s why you don’t start a war (like Russia has done on this occasion and the US has done on many occasions) and why you don’t provoke a war like the US has done on this occasion.
If you want to ignore the complex factors that lead to war and treat the issue simplistically as goodies vs baddies, then I suggest you stick to Rambo movies and leave the discussion to the grown-ups.
You have completely missed the (well-balanced) point of Guy’s excellent article. He is aware that he is not a politician but a journalist whose job it is to RESEARCH AND INFORM the readership. It’s politicians who sensationalise, lie, exaggerate and generally use any situation for their own personal gain i.e. who dole out propaganda. It is not the media’s job to publicise that propaganda – but they do. And we, the public are the worse off for that.
The problem with Russia, NATO and Ukraine is complicated, as Guy explains. Nothing will ever be settled if players/people refuse to listen, learn and find a point of compromise – and Guy covered that very point.
I disagree that the article is well-balanced. He spends a lot of time asking “where are the voices making the cogent argument from Russia’s side”, but if you read carefully he doesn’t really make one himself. He talks a little bit about NATO membership, and Russian “survival” (from what?). But he doesn’t dig in himself.
Classic Rundle: shallow media bashing masquerading as political analysis.
What are Russia’s security concerns with NATO? This is something raised in vague terms but is never critically examined. Has Latvia sliced Russian territory towards St Petersburg under the guise of NATO policing? Are there tank divisions standing ready to annex Kaliningrad?
Why are the views and wishes of central and eastern European peoples continuously discounted? If they asked to join NATO, out of proven Russian aggression, why is it dismissed as imperialism on behalf of the west?
What guarantees does Ukraine have against future aggression under the “peace deal”? We had a Yes Minister skit in the 80s warn of”salami slice tactics” by Russia, how can we be so stupid to ignore that now?
Latvia is lucky it still has some people living there, they are fleeing like fleas on a dog who was just treated.
No stories about DPR citizens fleeing to Russia to escape Ukrainian shelling? Wait, that doesn’t suit the Western narrative.
Those DPR Ukraine citizens are performing well against their Ukraine brothers. They would have been in Kiev in 2015 if they were not told to stand down.
Because according to the Stalinists running this line, Russia is good, the West is bad. That is really what it comes down to. This can’t be critically examined as this is what it comes down to for people running this line.
No, it’s ordinary people taking ussie with western leaders Hypocrisy. I’ll mark you down as one vote for the LNP.
More like one of the “If it ain’t white it ain’t right” crowd. Others in the US are now challenging that if this war hadn’t happened in a White, European, so-called Christian country then “the West” would not care one whit.
Millions protested against the Iraq War. If you hate the West so much, you don’t have to live in it you know.
I don’t hate the West. I hate that it gets away with all its immoral, illegal acts but if anyone else does the same stuff…..
Do you understand what hypocrisy is Junior?
Exactly, a glib one liner or rhetorical device which is used to stop conversation and/or scrutiny of other relevant facts (since the depths of the cold war); and something of the ‘my enemy’s enemy is my friend’.
If one responds with, ‘can you explain why NATO?’, people start reeling off conspiracies to support Putin, i.e. both ageing left and right in Anglo nations very far away, who tend to rely upon old views and ideology from a generation ago; now outnumbered working age and youth do not matter anymore and are thrown under the bus, so as not to disturb sentiments and project e.g. Brexit.
Worse, as discussed in a (good) Guardian UK article (5 March ’22, following on from the one by Monbiot) by NIck Cohen ‘Far right and far left alike admired Putin. Now we’ve all turned against strongmen…. The worst people in the west were pro-Putin. They excused his imperialist ideology and crimes against humanity and never paid a price for bootlicking a dictatorship. On the contrary, they took Britain out of the European Union and took over the Labour party. They won the presidencies of the United States and the Czech Republic and seized control of politics and the media in Hungary.’
Guy, you seem to have the opinion that there is a NATO push into Eastern Europe. If so, it’s slight and was obviously hesitant. What there is, is pull, strong and insistent, from those states themselves. Why would that be? Any answers? You should talk to, and better listen to, Eastern European citizens. I have, and over many decades, yet to my discredit I tended to dismiss their fears of Russia (their typical word) as exaggerated, jingoist relics of antipathy to bygone Stalinists and even to long-past Tsarist suppressions. And this dismissal though I personally knew people involved in events in Budapest in 1956, and was especially close to participants in the 1968 Prague Spring! Behaviour shows that the present Russian regime holds to the view, long since abandoned by the Western European (formerly) great powers, that lesser European states are in fact pseudo-states entirely bereft of agency, being merely shadows within the sphere of influence of the nearest Great Power. So, Guy, are you really arguing that these smaller states are vassal states as they once were, or not?
Plenty of commies in Czechoslovakia who were appalled at the thought of not being a communist nation.
Yes there were indeed, as there were in Tito’s Yugoslavia in 1945. But what they wanted was to be their own communist nations, not vassals of the USSR. (Josef Skvorecky give a flavour of USSR-vassaldom in his introduction to the novella The Bass Saxophone, not much different from the flavour of Joseph Konrad in Under Western Eyes in Tsarist times.) The Czechs didn’t get their wish, but Tito’s mob did, and this was only because Tito, a devout communist, let Stalin know (but presumably in a caring way) that the Red Army, who had moved in after the Partisans has liberated their own country, had to immediately stop pinching stuff and raping women. Stalin explained that the latter was “Just a bit o’ fun”, but Tito wasn’t buying it. And the Red Army was to withdraw rapidly. Tito may have hinted that the partisans might be reactivated and Stalin would inherit a sore that would never heal. Stalin was a psychopath but not without wisdom; the Red Army was withdrawn. And later, Yugoslavia, still a communist country, got US aid equivalent to the Marshall Plan that all the other vassal states were forced to reject.
Quite true.
So few even remember the unaligned Yugoslavia of Tito, a haven for Deutsche Mark rich sun’n’sex seekers through-out the 70s & 80s.
Stunning Adriatic coastline, plentiful Slivovitz, cheap wholesome food and a comely peasantry made a wonderful alternative to the tawdry Costa del Sleaze.
Stop bringing facts into this discussion. According to Guy and the other Stalinists it is as simple as Russia good, the Wets bad.
Actually it’s Russia bad, West worse. 1.6 Million killed in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Yemen and Syria and nary a word of outrage (then again they aren’t White and in Europe are they?) can you spell Hypocrisy?
Millions of people protested against the Iraq War. Just as millions protested against the Vietnam War decades earlier.
You like to keep saying how bad the West is (while not saying much about Russia’s wars). Maybe consider going and living in Russia if it’s so great, although people protesting there against the Ukrainian war there now face 15 years in jail. Was it the same for Russian people protesting against the 1979 invasion of Afghanistan?
You only mention the West’s invasion which only occurred after 3000 people died from attacks based in Afghanistan.
It’s as you want to undermine the focus and sense and purpose that the West now has against Putin. Really.
Listen Junior. I was waiting for the usual Gen Y whiney response of the “maybe you should go and live there”. Grow up. Try joining the military and learn about life.
“millions of people protested against the Iraq War”. Big deal. Where was the Sanctions by the West against the US? Where was the military support for Iraq and the denouncements by Western Governments against US Agression? Where were the calls for War crimes trials against the US? Non existent is the answer. Absolute hypocrisy but I expect that from the West.
Wow. You actually think that invading an entire Country is justified by the killing of 3000 people by a Saudi National not from that country? I went to the Twin Towers site a few months later and saw the terrible carnage? Did you? Do you understand why Muslims hate the West so much? It still doesn’t justify invading a Sovereign nation, killing over 274,000 people. All of this, of course, with zero ramifications to the United Snakes and its Allies. War Crimes by Australia, no action. Black Sites and illegal detention of “enemy combatants” (to avoid having to comply with US law and the Geneva Convention). No outcry by the West.
The US stealing the Sovereign wealth of Afghanistan and keeping 50% for itself? No outcry or sanctions against the US by the rest of the West.
If Ukraine wasn’t White, mainly Christian and located in Europe, the West would not give a toss about it.
As long as we portray ourselves as “good” and all the Non- Western countries as bad while ignoring all the Asian, brown and black people we murdered, that’s what really matters isn’t it? Western hypocrisy 101 but whatever helps you sleep at night in your deluded world Junior.
No Senior. I’m not going to read your rant that you start by being patronising.
For all your words Mr Rundle you are still advocating that a sovereign country signs over its power to an invading force. Would you suggest the same appeasement if it was Australia under direct threat? It’s all too easy to suggest that giving in to Putin’s mania is Ukraine’s best option but Putin, like other famous territorially addicted madmen in history, is not going to stop at one country when there are so many other delicious sweeties to swallow up. Whatever the rationale behind Putin’s aggression, and you have offered several, history tells us that stopping the whole hideous enterprise in its tracks right now is a far better solution than trying to be understanding and making nice with a psychopath.
Kosovo.
Iraq, Afghanistan?
Yeah it was bad when Russia invaded Afghanistan.
Not to mention Putin invading Chechnya, Georgia, Syria, Crimea, Ukraine earlier – Kazakhstan – to help another dictator. These are invasions that Putin himself started!
Can you say anything bad against Putin?
For your general fund of knowledge Junior
https://archive.globalpolicy.org/us-westward-expansion/26024-us-interventions.html
Thanks Guy. Some sane words finally.
You should go to Fox News and watch Tucker Carlson. Plenty of “sane words” there to comfort you.
Never watched Fox News Sport.
We know who’s boot Tom licks, he wants to be a neocon but will never be invited to the party. Should someone tell him.
I think you just did. But don’t be so patronising as to assume that I want to be a neocon.
Is that your update on the undergraduate/”Young Ones” taunt of calling everyone who disagrees with you a “fascist?”
Those who disagree with me call me a Stalinist. In a tug of war you’re meant to have equal on both ends of the rope.
And in a debate you’re supposed to use logic. But you’ve already said that you’re not so interested in that.