Anti-trans activists have tried to deny the presence of neo-Nazis at their rally on Saturday by spreading unfounded and false claims they were left-wing activists or undercover police, despite the far-right group’s own message of support.
In the aftermath of the Melbourne appearance of Kellie-Jay Keen Let Women Speak tour, the UK-based anti-trans campaigner live-streamed a “post-event chat” where she sipped champagne with Victorian Liberal MP Moira Deeming, failed Liberal candidate for Warringah Katherine Deves and anti-trans campaigner and host of TERF Talk Down Under Angie Jones.
During the broadcast, Keen repeatedly claimed that a group of men who gave Nazi salutes, chanted “white power”, shouted slurs at the LGBTQIA+ protesters, and included public neo-Nazi figures might not have been neo-Nazis.
“All of this doesn’t make any sense, it feels really off. I mean, look in the UK. We had police impregnating animal rights campaigners. And we had those police infiltrating those groups. I don’t think it’s beyond the wits of anyone to think that either that was TRAs [trans rights activists] dressed up, or police, or, something was just off,” she said.
Later, Jones echoed these suspicions when talking about how their event was not associated with neo-Nazis, calling them “Nazis in inverted commas”.
Australian far-right researchers, such as the White Rose Society and Andy Fleming, have identified known members of the neo-Nazi group National Socialist Network as part of the group. These included Thomas Sewell, who was found guilty of affray and recklessly causing injury for punching a Nine security guard and is still facing charges for robbery, and Nathan Bull, a recently unmasked group member and son of a Victorian police officer.
Social media posts from both Sewell and the group confirmed their participation and explicitly stated their intention was to support Keen and her tour.
Keen did not respond to an Instagram message asking whether she had reconsidered her claims and whether she condemned the neo-Nazis’ support. Crikey does not suggest that Keen was aware of the National Socialist Network’s participation in the rally.
Moira Deeming, who said she believed the neo-Nazis were either LGBTQIA+ protesters or anti-fascist activists until they started doing a Nazi salute, joked that the protesters seemed to greet the neo-Nazis: “It was as if they were saying hello,” she said.
Imitating the LGBTQIA+ protesters, Keen waved and said, “Maybe it was like that, like ‘Alright, mates.’”
“So they’re friends,” Deeming laughed.
Keen, who has used the pseudonym Posie Parker, has a history of connections with the far right. She has previously taken a selfie with a Norwegian neo-Nazi, praised anti-Islam activist and convicted criminal Tommy Robinson, and appeared on far-right podcasts and networks, The National reported. At a protest earlier this year organised by Keen’s group, Standing For Women, a speaker quoted Adolf Hitler’s Mein Kampf when arguing that trans women aren’t women.
Keen’s anti-trans rhetoric has included claims, including as recently as this month, that trans people are transitioning to allow men to sexually abuse children (a common far-right trope) and that even transgender rights supporters are groomers.
Similarly, the neo-Nazis saluted alongside a banner reading “Destroy Paedo Freaks”.
Political leaders from all sides of politics have condemned the rally. This includes Victorian Premier Dan Andrews, federal Greens Leader Adam Bandt, and Victorian Liberal Leader John Pesutto, who said he is moving to expel Deeming from the Liberal parliamentary partyroom later this week.
The thing that constantly stands out to me about anti-trans speakers and protestors is how it’s so very narrow in its target. The arguments are majorly aimed at trans-women. Trans-men hardly seem to rate a mention. One, it appears, is considered more of a threat than the other. The only real threat is the marrow-minded views of those who have absolutely no idea what someone puts themselves and their bodies through to transition. They seem to think it’s a matter of “putting on a dress”.
And the paedophile trope fails against the evidence that the vast majority of convicted and known paedophiles are heterosexual, sometimes married, sometimes with children of their own.
Predatory males rarely “hunt” for targets in women’s bathrooms when there are so many other places they find that are dark or isolating or provide plenty of cover and they don’t need a dress for that.
I just want to clarify one thing. Not all men are predatory, thankfully. The vast majority are pretty decent in my experience.
Exactly!! All the BS about predatory men pretending to be women so they can haunt ladies toilets; what is stopping them from doing that now?
I think the predators to be concerned about are the neo-nazis and other aggressive transphobes involved in this “movement”.
They can’t get some idiots to go along with their delusions if they are not wearing a dress.
No way a man with all the gear should be in a womans’ facikities.
No way they should be taking part in ‘sports’..
You do know, don’t you, that around 90% of trans identifying men don’t have any genital surgery and male pattern violence doesn’t change with transition. If you don’t, Dr google is your friend and you’ll find robust stats from legitimate government departments. That’s why trans identified men are usually the point of discussion, although gay men are getting increasingly tired of trans identifying women in their spaces.
I totally agree that not all men are predatory. That’s why the good ones stay out, including many trans women. They respect women’s right to have single sex spaces.
Besides that, I
It is best to include a link to high quality open access (full-text and free of charge) evidence when you post things like statistics.
It’s an interesting argument for them to make when this speaker has suggested armed men base themselves in the toilets to harass gender nonconforming women using the toilets. Ironically, these people so concerned about “male pattern violence” have created a situation where gender nonconforming girls and women have to either be harassed every time they use a women’s toilet or use the men’s.
You constantly refer to ‘toilets’ where private stalls/cubicles are the norm yet studiously avoid claiming that non conforming women have a ‘poblem’ in changing rooms where, to coin a phrase, it all hangs out.
Why is that?.
Because the two are often together and the attitudes for entry are the same.
And when the gear comes off?
The joke of all this is that most of the people accused of “being in the wrong toilets” aren’t even trans. Most of this is just used to harass ciswomen that don’t fit gender stereotypes from using the toilets.
A cynical person might even say it’s about controlling what counts as a ‘real woman’.
If you were a woman you’d know that males not only smell different – no matter how many hormones they guzzle, the pheromones don’t change the testosterone reek – and no matter how effeminate, behavioural signals learned in childhood are a dead give away.
Back in the day (60/70s) it was always fraught when a western woman tried to wear a full Afghan burka – with the tiny flymesh window – on the street. Fortunately there were always Afghan women to rescue them.
It was so blatantly wrongedy wrongly wrong because they had no idea of the posture, behaviour & boundaries of the mode they were attempting to mimic.
The same with trans in the West trying to fool themselves that they can ‘pass’ – for maybe 5 seconds.
I am a ciswoman and that is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever read. I would bet my life on you misidentifying a gender nonconforming woman using the women’s toilets.
And the changing room? Still tap dancing around the issue – wonder why.
I have already answered that question . Frankly, if you’ve seen genitals in the women’s change rooms, you’re a creep. Let me guess, you’re one of the ones that stare at gender nonconforming women as they get changed.
Yet you are the one who never ceases obsessing – not something that a woman would need to do.
I’m not obsessing. I am pointing out that these attitudes affect far more gender nonconforming women than trans women. Stop staring at people’s genitals when they get changed.
I know you don’t think I’m a valid woman.. I get “men’s haircuts”, and dress in a way that is stereotypically male. I’m one of the many women harassed by women like you for not being feminine enough.
I have never heard a woman refer to herself as “…a valid woman..”.
I’m referring to you and your hatred of gender nonconforming women. I have never heard women proclaim they can smell a trans woman
Same, clippered and shaped at the back, cut short. Don’t own a dress or a skirt, absolutely no heels. Wear a little bit of “scent” only when I go to wor 2 days a week. Never wear makeup or any sort of cosmetics other than the “scent”. My husband, when we first started dating in my late teens, hated that I’d often get called “mate” by other men before they realised I was actually female. My mother seriously believed I was going to wear jeans to my wedding (I borrowed my older sister’s wedding dress, who knew nearly 40 years ago I was doing something so forward thinking at the time? Ha!)
I went through high school constantly ending up in the deputy head mistress’s office because I hated the uniform skirt and the sports uniforms.
I really believe that society as whole keeps trying to define what a man or woman should not only look like but how they behave and, as a whole, gets it so drastically wrong so often that it exacerbates mental health and violence.
Just as well we’re not all assigned a gender at conception, we’d all be female.
i am over this ! And i live by the tenet live and let live – the world is burning people – you do you – gay, straight bi trans- or bi or asexual – but womens and little girls and boys rights should not be secondary
Most women have lots of medical and health issues they are born with ;have wombs and we are historically enslaved by men – women originated kabuki but men banned women from their iwn art form and it becane oassed down from father to son – Little Mix performed in sexy attire and deigned too raunchy by certain groups 7 years back ? Ironically all nake gender non confirming group played concerts and were lauded for their beautiful raunch kinky wear- women are told again by society our stuff aint ours – where are all the females makin billions out of female cis womens stuff – cultural appropriation and where are women – feminists are the ” good guys” we dont take but the patriarchy dollars and hype do the rest
I don’t understand your issue with change rooms. There are some incredibly odd obsessions that go into the make believe world in operation here. I have come to the conclusion that this is something like the incels’ black pill world. A few people have constructed a fantasy world (pseudo science and all) and sucked a whole lot of vulnerable people into it.
I think if we get to the bottom of the obsession with trans women, we’re going to find a group of people getting incredibly rich on merch – tshirts, books, bumper stickers, fake passes through the Pearly Gates and a whole lot more.
Possibly because women and girls don’t want to undress in the presence of strange males. This is not unreasonable.
Possibly because they want to make the environment hostile to gender nonconforming girls and women and also want to exclude lesbians… oh here we arw again
This is another one of the make believe world things that makes me think you guys have fallen into the same trap as incels.
The number of trans women is an incredibly small proportion of the population and is rarely involved in community sport (mostly because they don’t feel they would be welcome) so aren’t in change rooms. Those clubs that have welcomed trans women report no problems. There’s just no way your problem exists. On the other hand, people have been caught making up stories about trans women in change rooms.
I think you should spend some time in women’s change rooms. If you did, you would know that a woman with a body different from the majority of other women would stand out and she wouldn’t be oggling at everyone else because she’d be noticed and would be made to feel VERY unwelcome. Furthermore, women’s change rooms aren’t environments like men’s change rooms on the telly.
As I’ve said elsewhere, you have been sucked into a non-existent world by some incredibly manipulative people; just like the incels, plandemic people, white supremacists, etc. There’s a group of brilliant grifters getting very, very rich on these conspiratorial fantasies that appeal to people who are struggling in various ways.
Re “…people have been caught making up stories about trans women in change rooms.” – the Grauniad never apologised for this blatant misrepresentation –
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jul/28/anti-trans-video-los-angeles-protest-wi-spa
Even when it was obliged to report the truth a couple of months later, it still tried to push the previous B/S –
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/sep/02/person-charged-with-indecent-exposure-at-la-spa-after-viral-instagram-video
This is a really good example of how people are manipulating you. The second (clarifying) article says that a man with a history of indecently exposing himself was charged not a trans woman.
Which emphasises the point which even PS made – one needn’t ‘transition’ to be transgender.
It’s all about how one feels at any given moment, apropos of nothing in the real world and thus ineffable.
Just like being homosexual
is a lifestyle choice.Are you confusing homosexual with trans?
Re “…people have been caught making up stories about trans women in change rooms.” – the Grauniad never apologised for this blatant misrepresentation –
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jul/28/anti-trans-video-los-angeles-protest-wi-spa
Pt II – the avoid the madBot
Even when it was obliged to report the truth a couple of months later, the Graun still tried to push the previous B/S –
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/sep/02/person-charged-with-indecent-exposure-at-la-spa-after-viral-instagram-video
As I said above, you have mis-read the article.
In your state of mind, you have to be very, very much more cautious than usual about confirmation bias when you read articles like this. The grifters manipulating you understand the weakness of confirmation bias very well and count on you not knowing how to challenge it as you read or being incapable of challenging it as you read.
A male pretending to be a woman is a definition of “…strange males.”
I think they don’t understand that pool change rooms have toilet cubicles, and store change rooms have cubicles, I have only ever been in a communal ladies change room sans cubicles in the UK, and even then not one person there was stripped naked, ever, the many times I attended, and was far too crowded for any abuse other than elbowing out of the way of the mirror.
Ahh, remember the good ole daze of pre-history, Derry & Toms psychedelic roof garden and Biba‘s communal change room in Kensington in the 60s Swingin’ London?
Nah. They “always know” remember.
I know. They get it wrong so often, it’s kind of laughable when they claim they “know.” Apparently, their sense of smell is so heightened that they know if someone is a man or a woman.
There isn’t a mammal on the planet that cannot distinguish between a male/female olfactory signal.
Learned responses notwithstanding, a woman’s sense of smell is orders of magnitude greater than that of a male.
For the same reason (survival of children) that, apart from a vanishingly rare, specific medical condition, no woman is colour blind whereas around 10% men are, to greater or lesser degree.
Re your earlier protestation, no woman would refer to herself as a ‘ciswoman’ – a neologism invented as a disparagement.
Which has now yielded to… wait for it… ‘nontrans woman‘.
Would you please refrain from broadcasting incorrect factoids on behalf of all women. And at least make some attempt to get your facts right before purporting to speak for the entire population of human females on the planet. FYI, women have a slightly better sense of smell than men. And 1 in 200 women are colour blind. https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2019.00242/
https://www.verywellhealth.com/can-women-be-color-blind-5092910
Way to miss the point of pheromones – as for the link, it proved my point, vanishingly rare medical conditions.
Way to miss the facts – your assertion that “a woman’s sense of smell is orders of magnitude greater than that of a male” is just plain wrong. 1 in 200 colour blind women is 20 million women worldwide – not really rare, and you provide no evidence it is vanishing. As for your reference to the “reek” of testosterone, it raises questions about where exactly you fit on the gender/sexuality spectrum. Not that I care – other people’s bathrooms and bedrooms are of no interest if no crimes are being committed in them. I just object to the BS pronouncements about “all women” – you do not speak on behalf of all women, or even most of them.
Far from vanishing, colour blindness in women, being no longer a survival factor – for children, remember them? – is increasing, along with crowded jaw/impacted wisdom teeth and stratospheric increase in allegeries, when not just performative attention seeking along with so many other novel ‘conditions’ previously unknown to medical or psychiatry.
Now why might be – what common factors suggest causation?
Polio is a perfect example – once a mild infection picked up by all children as toddlers playing on the midden heap became a serious problem in the super sterilized to the Nth degree in north America.
You were the one who said “apart from a vanishingly rare, specific medical condition, no woman is colour blind”, remember? If you really cared about children, you would be spending your energy doing something about what is by far the greatest threat to them, global warming. End of discussion.
And the link you provided referred to precuisely that – vanishingly rare clinical conditions, not congenital.
It is not possible to have misread so simple a construction so this is just deliberate time wasting.
Read the Rudyard Kipling short story PIG – it’s very short and uses hardly any big words.
Your constant efforts to paint anyone who disagrees with you as stupid lack all credibility. as you can’t read, and you can’t spell. The link clearly discusses inherited causes of colour-blindness in women from various genes, which FYI are congenital by definition. Reread the passages on X-Linked recessive forms of colour blindness, autosomal dominant forms of colour blindness, and autosomal recessive forms of colour blindness, all of which are inherited through genes, ergo congenital. I can only conclude you don’t know what congenital means. As for timewasting, I have a strict limit on the amount of time I am prepared to waste arguing with idiots which you have caused me to exceed, so this is goodbye.
Seems obvious at this point he’s just trolling.
Lol, well why do you get it wrong so often then?
The few times these people mention trans men they’re extremely patronising. As far as they’re concerned, trans men have zero agency and have been tricked into being trans by evils trans people.
Seems, esp. in US, run along the lines or in parallel with ‘traditional wives’ movement &/or ‘white boy summer’; nostalgia for the good old days…. assuming those outside a religious community need some nudging to ‘traditional values’ for conservative votes?
Gay venues aka for men had strict door rules not allowing women in ! Dont tell me about predators -and losing rights inmany countries girls are married off – , plenty of mixed agendas -live and let live and there is one older nurse over 50 in a hospital ward 12 months ago -lovely person too- she was – but no 50 plus cis women – out of work or homeless – lots of women are either gaslit or ignored
I have no idea what you are saying here. It’s 2023. What gay venues deny entry to women because they are women?
It is also worth mentioning that the event was funded nearly entirely by two lunar right organisations: CPAC America and Binary Australia.
(Binary of course sprung from the ashes of the anti-Islamic and then anti-marriage equality movement.)
But yes, it’s all just a horrible coincidence that the hard right turned out . . .
Interesting how media outfits linked to or promoting the former, ran protection when describing the far right presence as ‘crashed’ versus ‘attending’; suggesting no linkage, big difference in meaning….
Indeed. The irony – people claiming they support sex-based rights and reject the idea of gender have been aligning themselves with people who literally ran a national campaign saying boys that wear dresses are so disgusting that we have to maintain discrimination against gay people to protect society from them. Honestly, they hate trans people so much that they support people that promote the parental and societal rejection of boys that don’t fit gender stereotypes and will probably want to ban girls from wearing trousers next.
Does this awful, dissembling, money-grubbing person ever say anything in good faith?
The organisers of this horrible event could easily have asked the enormous police presence to move the Nazis on, but they didn’t. They could have told the Nazis to clear off, but they didn’t do that, either. If there had been any footage of them trying to do either, they would have made sure it got out by now.
These nasty grifters have a lot of questions to answer as to why Nazis are so eager to hang out with them, and why the likes of the sunglasses-wearing agent-provocateur and her Australian hangers-on are so comfortable being seen with them. It’s only when their tactics backfire and they get embarrassed that they try every conceivable line to deflect it onto their opponents in the hope that one of these catches on and they can carry on pointing the finger at trans people.
I’m aghast she ever got a visa to enter this country, and won’t be surprised if Home Affairs becomes the centre of a huge and embarrassing stuff-up should US actress Parker Posey ever try and get in.
expert clearly – what if say the feminist speaker used as a torch by grubby nationalist Australian men and a few femsle politicos seeking media – they got it and rang up a few blackshirts to drum up the outrage – and here women in Australia are homeless at 45 !!! wake up
I’m bemused that police were impregnating animal rights campaigners.
During a rally?
My God, I hope they put a blanket over them. Won’t someone think of the children?
Where’s a water cannon when needed?
You should be more than bemused. https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2012/jan/20/undercover-police-children-activists
OMG! That actually happened.
Yes, the Police did an outrageous thing to those women, but trying to tie it to trans rights is incredibly bad faith.
Why is it incredibly bad faith? The presence of neo nazis does nothing to help the cause of the women protesting self-ID legislation etc. ask yourself who does benefit? Changing the law to ban the Nazi salute seems perfectly reasonable. And I would support that, as would the women campaigning for their right to boundaries, for instance, keeping violent male offenders out of women’s presence, and keeping men out of women’s sport. But there are already calls to extend H speech laws to prevent women from even expressing an opinion on those issues. What a disgrace it is to see otherwise same people being fully on board with the idea of suppressing women’s right to free speech. That’s what this is about. Our women allowed to speak? or only allowed to speak when they’re saying what men want to hear.
“Are women.. only allowed to speak when they’re saying what men want to hear.” – yeh, pretty much, those men being the ones in wigs & dresses who, according to PS, do not even need medical intervention to be fully accredited (sic!) self identified etc etc…ad infinitum.
what about the 410 thousand homeless women “sisters” – not about our young lipstick andtits up bra days – i refuse to be labelled by menstruration capacity by those holier than thou – Live and let live – sisterhood
Not all cis women menstruate
Well sussed, Sherlock!
[…]
ROFL. Undoubtedly written without a hint of irony.
Not following the news?
Can you highlight some news that “calls to extend H speech laws to prevent women from even expressing an opinion on those issues” ?
Try Grundle’s old muckers’ site Spiked – Judith Whelan, Bonehead O’Nihil, Jo Bartosch, Joanna Williams or, if cerebration is a problem, Julie Burchill.
Why would I go trawling through some virtual birdcage liner trying to figure out whether somebody’s written something that might meet a definition existing in someone else’s head ?
You asked.
Munin ” Doubt seems to be the only purity for those who are too fervant to deny, and too lucid to affirm”- x
Indeed.
FWIT, I’m impressed that you wrote out Ms Barney’s epigram – evidenced by the ‘fervant‘ typo. – rather than bulk cut’n’paste as do so many know-nuttins here.
Who knew people might object to those running around proclaiming trans women are all rapists might lead to some concerns. Brianna Ghey, a trans girl, was murdered in the UK and the response from these people? Double-down on violent rhetoric targeted at trans women.
This was back in the 80s and in the UK. Not Australia and not right now. It makes as much sense as wondering if Australia did their own MKULTRA
Blaming trans women for the conduct of men, none of whom were even claiming to be trans women, is bad faith because you’re trying to lay blame on trans women. Self ID had absolutely nothing to do with the conduct of these police. And thank you for your implicit admission that gender nonconforming women should have to show ID to use the toilets. Next time I am harassed as a cis woman that doesn’t fit gender stereotypes for using the women’s toilets, I’ll think of you.
If you were not aware, undercover cops have had affairs with activists. Not sure which countries.
That’s actually true. UK under cover police had children with women they were surveiling
Undercover cops infiltrated a number of environmental and animal rights organisations, forming relationships with members. In one instance a male police officer formed a relationship with an unsuspecting animal rights activist who became pregnant. So keep on laughing, but you’re the one who is ignorant.
Yes, it was wrong but has nothing to do with trans people.
Why do I give one single care about what happened in the UNITED KINGDOM IN A COUNTRY WITH DIFFERENT LAWS AND SENSIBILITIES TO AUSTRALIA? Undercover police had children with activists | Police | The Guardian
Agreed. We really need a credible reference with stats if we are to believe that.
That was meant as a joke. I understand now.
Nazis being attracted to anti-trans group is hardly surprising or “off”
I find it amusing that they so fervently admire the Nazis and carry the Confederate flag…………….
…………both of whom got their arses handed to them in a sling.
If you’re heroes are dead-set losers, what does that say about you?…………………….
It plays to their persecution complex.
I’m waiting for the so called sex-based rights people to demand women be banned from wearing trousers.
your Australian..