There’s enormous institutional support for high immigration in Australia. Employers have spent much of the past year complaining about their inability to bring in foreign workers and the unwillingness of Australians to work at award wages, with considerable support from economic commentators and major institutions.
The Morrison government, and like-minded governments like Dominic Perrottet’s in New South Wales, are keen to reopen borders to foreign workers as quickly as possible.
To placate the National Party and the influential horticulture industry — Australia’s most exploitative industry after sex work — the Morrison government has even established a visa category designed for the entry of low-paid, unskilled workers from ASEAN countries. The message that Australia regards ASEAN as simply a pool of cheap manual labourers is doubtless burnishing our image in those countries even as we speak.
But in July, Reserve Bank governor Philip Lowe — once an advocate for migration’s impact on labour — upset both the neoliberal right and the cultural left by arguing that migration had played a role in wage stagnation.
That infuriated the right not merely because open borders and flooding markets with labour is central to the neoliberal model but because Lowe might be proved to be correct given Australia’s labour market recovered with spectacular speed from last year’s lockdowns in the absence of hundreds of thousands of migrant workers.
So far, however, jobs growth hasn’t been enough to push wages growth up in the face of employer hostility to changing what is now a decade of enforced wage stagnation.
Economic orthodoxy is that migration is good for employment, although evidence is hard to find. The Productivity Commission found in 2016 that “at an aggregate level, recent immigrants had a negligible impact on wages, employment and participation of the existing labour force”. A more recent academic paper found that “the outcomes local workers has not been adversely affected by recent migrants … Recent migrants have a negative but statistically not significant effect on the unemployment rate of local workers. We find a positive relationship between the labour force participation rate of local workers and the proportion of migrants. We also find that wages are positively correlated with proportion of migrants.”
What is less explored is the impact of temporary migration on wages, and in particular a large pool of foreign students. From about 250,000 student visa grants a year under Labor, more than 400,000 were granted in 2019. That year there were more than 600,000 foreign students in Australia.
Another increasing source of labour is asylum seekers who have arrived by plane and lodged protection applications. Under Peter Dutton, the government lost control of borders and failed to stop a huge rise in people gaming the onshore protection visa system to obtain bridging visas here in order to work, often for labour hire companies that had enabled their travel to Australia. This peaked in 2017 when nearly 28,000 people arrived to claim onshore protection visas; the number was still above 20,000 last year. Now there are more than 90,000 onshore protection claimants either awaiting decision or yet to be deported — up from 80,000 in 2019.
Foreign students and bridging visa holders often work in the sectors best known for exploitation or poor wages growth: retail and hospitality, construction and agriculture. The horticulture industry continues to be synonymous with the exploitation, harassment and abuse of temporary workers, including backpackers and temporary workers from Pacific countries.
None of the studies suggesting that Australian workers benefit from immigration have grappled with the impacts on specific industries, or on the wider labour market, of having three-quarters of a million students, asylum applicants and temporary workers, often with poor language skills and no connections to institutional support, working for Australia’s most exploitive employers.
Two of these rapacious industries — hospitality and horticulture — have been among the loudest voices demanding that the government reopen borders as quickly as possible to allow them greater access to easily exploited workers.
Interestingly, however, some industries are beginning to acknowledge that simply reopening the borders isn’t the answer. Today’s report from Infrastructure Australia on the infrastructure workforce — which has been used by some industry advocates to make ritual demands for more migration — specifically concludes that the industry (which IA points out has relied heavily on foreign students) cannot rely on more migration to address looming workforce shortages, and governments and industry must focus more on training and skills (another ritual of public debate, admittedly).
More to the point, employer group Australian Constructors Association told IA: “With governments around the world investing heavily in infrastructure, even when international borders open, skilled migration is not a viable solution to addressing Australia’s capability and capacity constraints. Instead, Australia needs to find ways to become more productive with our available resources.”
For employers, that’s code for attacking unions like the CFMMEU.
But not being able to rely on importing cheap labour indicates that at least some industries are ahead of the government and the business consensus that no problem can’t be solved with more migrants.
Tomorrow: Boris Johnson, inflation and attacking the neoliberal consensus.
To placate the National Party and the influential horticulture industry — Australia’s most exploitative industry after sex work — the Morrison government has even established a visa category designed for the entry of low-paid, unskilled workers from ASEAN countries.
Prior to the demise of local papers it was obvious by the advertising that a substantial number of sex workers came from ASIAN countries and highly unlikely Australian Citazens.
Its just the usual slave labour found in brothels and on farms.
Sadly all too true!
The statement at the head of this article, viz:
“The evidence to support the economic orthodoxy that bringing in foreign workers is good for employment is hard to find.”
‘hits the nail on the head’.
So, Bernard, if you ever find this elusive evidence, then please let us readers know. Personally, I think that you would have a better chance of finding weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.
I, for one, favor zero immigration into this country. Over the last couple of decades or so we have allowed hundreds of thousands of immigrants to enter this country, many of whom have brought with them cultural practices and religious beliefs that are utterly incompatible with what passes for a modern 21st century civilization.
To make matters worse, we have encouraged the new-comers to set up their own little enclaves and ghettos under the banner of ‘multiculturalism’. So that when an emergency such as a global pandemic comes along that requires a united community response, this is not possible. For example, when unarmed Australian soldiers are enlisted to help to manage the pandemic emergency they are somehow seen as a threat by those who are not familiar with how we deal with special circumstances in this country.
Furthermore, unskilled migrants especially, are seen by unscrupulous employers as a source of cheap labor in an environment where the union movement has been systematically weakened over the last four decades or so. All this is, of course, consistent with toxic neo-liberal fundamentalism.
I grew up in an Australia that was more homogeneous, and therefore less fragmented, had a good manufacturing sector a better education system than that which obtains today. When I left school in the 1960s it wasn’t a case of “Gosh, will I be able to get a job?” It was a case of “What job will I get?” An unemployment rate exceeding 1% could cost the Federal Government its right to govern. And, I might add, many more of the jobs that were available then had permanent tenure (usually after a probationary period of 3 or 6 months), holiday pay, sick pay and long-service leave. All of that thanks to a strong trade-union movement.
Back in those days we used to train our tradespeople at technical schools and colleges. Many government owned instrumentalities such as the SEC and the PMG had world class trade apprenticeships. We did not rely on ‘skilled immigration’ to meet those requirements.
Nowadays we talk of an ’education industry’. Some weeks ago I caught a snippet of the Q & A program in which one of the guests referred to ‘the high-school industry’. I nearly vomited. The role of the ‘education sector’ is to provide all people with a high quality education from kindergarten through to university or technical college at the expense of the taxpayer. It is NOT to exploit people. The same applies to the health sector. These things are basic human rights, not commodities to be bought and sold like motor vehicles.
In closing I would say that I fully realize that some of my comments (perhaps all of them) will not be to the liking of everyone. That is fine. But rather than putting an anonymous red mark against my post, I cordially invite you to respond with carefully worded, logical and reasoned argument which explains why I am wrong. I am always accessible to this sort of response.
“many of whom have brought with them cultural practices and religious beliefs that are utterly incompatible with what passes for a modern 21st century civilization”
Unlike the beliefs of our Prime Minister?
Let me leave you in no doubt whatsoever, Wayne, my beliefs and those of the current Prime Minister of this country are mutually exclusive (or disjoint, if you like).
I can see where you’re coming from Robert but the key issue is that unless you are indigenous then we originated from immigration (if colonisation can be called that). So in that sense we set up enclaves, they just happened to be white European ones 🙂 But from an environmental perspective I also think we should resist increasing the population of Australia while at the same time assisting global efforts to ensure every human has their human rights upheld, which does not mean meddling / engaging in conflict!
Including the human rights of every Australian not to be treated as a commodity. Which is why I support a Universal Basic Income and ensuring corporations pay some freaking tax! 🙂
Thanks for reading my post and for your reply, dilettantebeth. I can also see where you are coming from and I certainly accept your points.
How do you link population with climate but ignore the government, think tanks and industry’s role in avoiding any substantive action? Fossil fueled regimes and Iraq War, plus same old ‘fossils’ also promoted ‘population’ as an environmental issue from the ’70s?
Locally, how do immigrants and/or statistical NOM based population growth/churn over of (based on slowing and/or below replacement fertility) become the issue over climate warming due to fossil fuels and negative environmental outcomes?
Radical right ‘libertarian trap’ imported from the US that has been used, too easily, in Australia for decades….. nudging away from fossil fuels and blaming (‘other’) humanity….
Well humanity actually must take some responsibility for population control! Humans are literally in plague proportions on the earth and it is not just fossil fuel emissions that are the problem! You’ve not noticed how our natural ecosystems on which we rely are being decimated by broadscale landclearing for food, fuel and fibre production? How we have paved over our good earth to build freeways and houses? How land clearing has also exacerbated the increase in desertification of once productive areas and how drawdown of groundwater leads to further degradation of our ecosystems? How we are losing our biodiversity at a horrific rate yet humans continue to increase? Have you failed to notice any of these things? I have no idea what you think a “radical right libertarian trap” is but all these things are happening right here and right now and humanity needs to get serious about population control as one measure of managing this crises!
Australia’s fertility rate is well below replacement already……accordingly the permanent population, derived from births/deaths and modest capped permanent migration, is ageing and stagnating….. the rest is temporary ‘churn over’ or ‘froth’ on the top without permanence.
Can you support any of your claims on behalf of this non science movement well known outside Australia, which promotes via ZPG (now Numbers US and Population Matters UK, supported by fossil fuels and inspired Sustainable Australia), the ‘greenwashing’ of fossil fuels and white nativism? You have simply listed old and untrue negative tropes about immigrants/population growth and their supposed causative links with environmental degradation…. more Malthus, socio-Darwinism and Galton (founder of the science of eugenics and racial hygiene).
This is achieved by presenting undefined immigration and population growth as environmental (‘hygiene’?) issues with sub-optimal analysis, backgrounded by political, media and corporate PR that favours the LNP, old less diverse cohorts of voters, fossil fuels, auto etc. and used to try split the centre and left….
Rather than do anything about carbon emissions we, e.g. just ‘banging on about immigration’ (David Cameron), and demand to secede from something for an ethnostate aka Brexit, Trump supporters et al. (also informed by the Club of Rome), delays and avoids any meaningful climate action allowing fossil fuels’ income streams to be maintained…. and keep out of sensible international and regional trade agreements and regulations.
Washington Post explained in ‘Anti-Immigration Campaign Begun’ By Susan Jaco May 8, 1977 citing sponsors i.e. Rockefeller Bros. (Standard Oil/Exxon), Ford and Carnegie while informed by Paul ‘population bomb’ Ehrlich and deceased white nationalist and anti-semite John ‘passive eugenics’ Tanton (public admirer of the white Oz policy); both of the latter have visited and liaised with similarly minded in Australia…..
Well said!
Do you think you could actually write this so it makes sense? Or can’t it?
Our education system has a lot to answer for, beth. It has been on the decline for over 50 years but that is another story.
ZPG is for wishy washy wimps – NPG now!
I just feel confused, what did Drew say??
The same as always – just reposts the same stuff, over & over, never varies a whit.
When you work it out, please let me know beth.
Get the facts –
https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/scienceshow/paul-ehrlich-reflects-after-50-years/13577042
Thanks for this Selkie, so sensible! And funny 🙂
Well you are dead wrong there in linking calls for population curbs with Trump and Brexit. It is more ethno-centrism that is at play with these 2 and their calls for seemingly anti-immigration policies vary with the practices of their nationalist admirers. Horticulturalists from Pennsylvania who voted for Trump and wanted a wall at the Mexican-US border and the removal of ‘illegal’ Mexican immigrants suddenly recoiled at this prospect as it would mean that no worker would pick their crops or plough their land or work their fields, etc. They wanted ‘exceptions’ to this policy and the policy was not pursued vigorously it must be said despite the racist rhetoric. Similarly for the UK. Brexit was associated with calls for repatriation of non-UK citizens, meaning basically asylum seekers from the Middle East, the Near East, Africa and non-EU members or even EU members who weren’t deemed sufficiently ‘European’ enough like the Slavic communities. Then what happened. Pub owners from southern England whinged that they would lose their ‘loyal’ Polish workers under Brexit that they vigorously previously campaigned for and demanded ‘exceptions’ to this repatriation policy.
Employers, particularly the cheap and nasty ones in the low skilled industries of agriculture, tourism, hospitality, retail and to an extent construction, love immigration and migrants. They keep labour costs down. I have just given you specific examples from news reports so it is pointless for you to do as you usually do to cite statistics. Read the Reserve Bank report handed down in July. The work they offer is dirty, heavy, repetitive and unskilled and for slavery to be used as a basis to sustain this is unjust and untenable and is only making things worse for the broader category of Australian workers.
Australia hasn’t changed in mentality among its employer class from the days of the blackbirding of Kanakas.
You are correct in every word and every syllable of your letter.I concur absolutely.
Many thanks for those kind words of support Malcolm. I very much appreciate them. Sometimes I think that I am a ‘voice in the wilderness’.
But quite frankly, even if people do disagree with me I am still interested in their views.
Hi Robert, I will happily vomit with you when it comes to throwing our kids’ education into the grinder that is capitalism. Like Shepparon’s ‘super school’, say. Kids are issued with preprogrammed ‘free’ devices branded with Gates or Maccers or Apple and their parents are required to enter more data in the evening for their kids to be able to log on to do their homework. And lo, ‘school’ has become just another app. We could ask parents of public school kids in South West Sydney who were required to ‘study’ how great the NSW government’s south west development is, airport land rort ‘n all.
But I can’t let it pass that you grew up in a more homogeneous Australia. The Australia I know was built on the backs of Greek and Italian workers, dissed for decades as ‘wogs’. Then there are the Frank Lowys who are successful on the true Australian standards of making lorry loads of money but I bet he has never felt welcome. My view of multiculturalism was that it was a genuine attempt to include and diversify, which will be why it is grist for the culture wars now.
I conclude whether Australian born or overseas born, it is not people’s values that are ‘compatible’ with Australia but the dire state of work conditions that is fragmenting society faster than we can keep ourselves together. Some older Australians tell me they still support unions but I don’t because they fail workers at every turn. Their actions are consistently antagonistic to improving conditions or workers having any voice. As a result, I support every worker who has quit their union as a bad job (which stats show is most of the paid workforce). There is nothing left but for workers to form their own committees and put forward their demands on their own behalf. That, I suggest, is where unity will start to accrue. People want housing and an income and health care and yes, real education, of the sort some older Australians may have been lucky enough to experience a taste of but is well past now.
Thank you for reading my post Catarina and for taking the time to write that detailed reply.
I am broadly in agreement with just about everything you say.
I particularly want to emphasize the fact that I generally do not judge people by the color of their skin, or nationality. I try to be guided (hopefully with some degree of success) by that aphorism of Dr Martin Luther King’s that, if we have to judge people at all, then that should be by the content of their character rather than the color of their skin, (or nationality).
Even though in my younger years I was an active union member, I understand your comments regarding unions. I have a relative whose union is strongly influenced by Catholics and they tend, not surprisingly, to push a Catholic agenda. I would have very grave reservations about belonging to such a union. The only observation that I would make is that if workers form their own committees with the aim of putting forward their demands, then isn’t that a form of unionism?
I could not help but notice a note of resignation in your final sentence. Just as I have observed some (and I emphasize ‘some’) things (albeit, significant things), change for the worse during my lifetime, that does not mean that when you get old that you cannot reflect that you observed some things change for the better over you lifetime. I only hope that you might be able to do just that.
Indeed, Robert, feel free to reflect but the evidence is that when it comes to people’s needs, things are a whole lot worse now. In this, however, Australia’s problems are common with all post industrial, ‘developed’ countries eg https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/oct/13/american-workers-general-strike-robert-reich
Well this is good to see!
I agree with most of what you say, but take issue with immigration numbers. Apart from all the economic advantages of high immigration (I personally think we should aim for 100 million, if not more, by the end of the century) I think there are important security implications as well.
It is predicted that Asia, with failing river systems and rising sea levels due to climate change, could have over a billion people on the move within the next 40/50 years. For an enormous empty continent nation with vast natural resources like Australia to keep putting out the tired old ‘we’re full’ mantra is not going to go over too well. Indonesia’s population is expected to grow to a mind boggling 350 million by mid century and, combined with the fact they hate our guts anyway, you can bet they’re going to be thinking we’re easy pickings! Are we really that sure the rest of the world will come to our aid?
Hi Bref,
Thanks for you reply. It makes for interesting reading.
I must say that I think that a population of 100 million would be an absolute disaster for Australia. We have 1/4 of that number now and we seem to need desalination plants in most of our capital cities. I understand that Canberra, Hobart and Darwin are the exceptions.
As you say, we are an enormous empty continent however only about 4% of this is arable land, see:
https://tradingeconomics.com/australia/arable-land-percent-of-land-area-wb-data.html
Land clearing and the introduction of non-native flora and fauna that has occurred since white settlement, has done untold damage to,inter alia, the environment here. We have one of the worst extinction rates in the world as it is. Evidently we are the forth worst country in the world for animal extinctions, see
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-07-20/australia-fourth-on-animal-extinction-list/10002380?nw=0&r=HtmlFragment
I would also submit that the whole world is grossly overpopulated now and has been for some time. We have existential crises in energy supply, climate change, environmental destruction and pollution (just to name a few of the areas of concern). Overpopulation is the ‘elephant in the room’ which no one wants to address as it means talking about insane religious beliefs and cultural practices.
We cannot, in all conscience, consign billions of people in third world countries to a live of poverty so that those of us who are fortunate enough to live in a first world environment can ‘live the life of Reilly’; but by the same token nor will the planet support 9 billion people living as we do here in the first world. Something will give Bref.
I share you concerns about Indonesia. I remember decades ago hearing stories of some Indonesian maps with the northern part of Australia labelled as “South Irian”. Certainly, the experience of those living in West Papua and Timor Leste (when it was under the brutal control of the Indonesians) is and was, far from pleasant. But I do not see increasing our population to 100 million as being the answer to that issue.
The RN Science show last Saturday featured Drew’s bete noire Paul R Ehrlich.
Honestly.
Well worth hearing.
Thank you Robert! A voice of sanity!
Oh dear. Is this populate or perish dressed up for the twenty first century? The country will definitely be empty if you have 100 million people in it! Empty of anything living but humans that is. It makes me feel physically sick to even think about it.
Oh please, the whole of Great Britain with their 60 million would fit very comfortably inside Victoria. With 100 million spread around Australia we’d still have among the lowest population densities on earth.
You might read John Brunner’s Stand on Zanzibar.
They won’t be spread out around Australia Bref, they will be where they are now, just more of them flattening what little environment we have left in those regions
Its really hot and dry in the deserty bits you know?
Java, barely half the size of Victoria, has six times our population who won’t even move to Sumatra (four times larger than Java) despite 3 generations of government policy and encouragement of transmigrasi.
There is a reason the Great Southern Land avoided the fate of surrounding lands – a human version of the Wallace line.
In Indonesia, fertility rates have been declining from high fertility and now near or approaching replacement rate, then like elsewhere will continue to decline further….. leads to aged population of higher dependency ratios when the working age population of taxpayers needs to support more retirees, is declining in relative terms, aka Australia.
Joko will be pleased by that demographic news – do let him know.
Admire your confidence but with credible demographic research emerging in the past decade, outside of the UNPD, with (often fast) falling fertility rates in the developing world, will mean that even lower end of UNPD estimates will not be reached by end of century.
Global population will peak mid century (e.g. China probably has already) and then decline (Brick & Ibbitson think precipitously) while others see a steady slowdown, but either way helping the environment (science journalist Fred Pearce).
Accordingly, Australia will be lucky to reach the ABS’s forecast peak (37.4 and 49.2 million by 2066) based on continued (unclear sources of) growth from a 2017 base via high NOM churn over due mostly to international education, bridging visa waiting for processing etc.; though it’s still unclear how they forecast births, demand for education, fewer mobile workers to go round etc. into the future.
Look at Brexit UK chaos now……. resulting from similar, conflating subjective cultural, with economic issues…. now supply chains issues, begging for truck drivers to return….. on visas good till Xmas……
‘The evidence to support the economic orthodoxy that bringing in foreign workers is good for employment is hard to find.’
Conversely then evidence to support the supposed causal link between unemployment/conditions/wages vs. ‘immigration’ should be plentiful, but where is it?
All are welcome to their opinions but one struggles with stereotyping a whole sector, dog whistled often in media (all ignorant or illiterate on data for the NOM, immigration and population, possibly masking their own implicit biases?) by presenting negatives on the whole international education sector while ignoring overwhelming positives; makes every single individual international student guilty of something? I would also mention that the sector lacks any public leadership exemplified by sectoral leaders up to VC and Ministers disappearing when international students are being thrown under the bus by media….. other competing nations are the winners….
Zero migration? First we have closed borders, now suggesting temporary visa holders should all depart, while permanent migration does not make up for low fertility rates, then (if not already) be faced with sectoral, geographic or skill shortfalls in the workforce, plus impairing budgets through losing a mass cohort of ‘net financial contributors’, as we approach the start of the ‘big die off’ in the ageing permanent population?
One needs to extend their future horizons beyond the short term and like climate warming, think of future generations who carry the can for current older generations’ needs.
My concerns with immigration is not based on any issue with “foreigners”. As I’ve previously highlighted the majority of us are “foreigners”. Have you seen the “cartoon” of the aboriginals on shore and the “white sails in the sun” captioned “stop the boats”? This sums up the hypocrisy so well!
While you are certainly entitled to your opinion, I do take issue with some points:
“many of whom have brought with them cultural practices and religious beliefs that are utterly incompatible with what passes for a modern 21st century civilization”
What, pray tell, is a modern 21st century civilization? I interpret this (rightly or wrongly) as meaning a modern 21st century Western civilization and thus exclusive to any non-Western modern 21st century civilization.
“To make matters worse, we have encouraged the new-comers to set up their own little enclaves and ghettos under the banner of ‘multiculturalism’. So that when an emergency such as a global pandemic comes along that requires a united community response, this is not possible. For example, when unarmed Australian soldiers are enlisted to help to manage the pandemic emergency they are somehow seen as a threat by those who are not familiar with how we deal with special circumstances in this country”
Nobody has encouraged anyone to set up “their own little enclaves and ghettos under the banner of multiculturalism”. Aside from objecting to your description of high immigrant areas as “ghettos” (which certainly shows a bias against immigrants), I grew up in Multicultural areas and it was always so regardless of Race or religion. The origins of the immigrants change is all.
Set aside that Australia has had SFA “emergencies that require a United community response” (at least in my lifetime) for the moment. Your example of “unarmed Australian soldiers are enlisted…. they are somehow seen as a threat” just highlights Australia’s lip service to Multiculturalism. There is truly “White Australia” and “everyone else” in any dealings between “everyone else” and Government. We have not truly incorporated these cultures into “Mainstream” Australia (they are still seen as separate) . Unfortunately, in some countries, the military and police are not the good guys. The ever present fear of deportation combined with complicated (and almost incomprehensible) Visa conditions (including Healthcare) and “assessment” processes, that do not instill confidence in immigrants. The ongoing deportations of NZ Citizens who have spent their lives here gives immigrants no comfort whatsoever.
To blame immigration for all our woes is typically “Australian” and utterly ignorant of the facts and the changes that have taken place in Australia since the 1960’s. All my life I have heard this bollocks. First it was “the Wogs” then the Vietnamese, then the Muslims and Africans and now its “the Asians). Did immigration cause some issues for some parts of our population? Yes but they got over it (or at least most of them did).
The primary reason for increasing Unemployment is due to our transition to a Service based economy which is quite common for wealthy countries.
Manufacturing moved out of Australia for economic reasons not due to immigration and its not coming back anytime soon. In short, we priced ourselves out of the market. In keeping with that, Apprenticeships were scaled back. We still have TAFE and other training for the Trades just not as much.
Erosion of Work Conditions? Blame various COALition governments who have weakened Worker Benefits through various “productivity” changes.
Unemployment? Not caused by immigration. In the late 1960s and early 1970s, the unemployment rate stood at 2% but over the 1970s rose gradually to 6%. The early 1980s saw a sharp rise in the unemployment rate to 10% in 1983. This declined to 6% by 1989. A further steep rise then occurred in the early 1990s, peaking at 11% in 1993. As well as showing a general increase over the period, the unemployment rate has fluctuated with the economic cycle. However, unemployment rates have become successively higher with each economic downturn. The definition of “Unemployed” has also changed over the years.
I agree with others that unskilled Temporary Labour that we require for our Hospitality and Agriculture industries are being exploited. This is Australia’s fault as they are doing the jobs that Australians don’t want to do. Good enough to work here but not good enough to live here?
In keeping with the move to a Service economy, industries such as Retail, Tourism, Hospitality etc now account for a significant portion of employment in this country. These industries are not conducive, in the main, to the type of hours and conditions in the Manufacturing industry. In other words, less Full Time Work and more Part-time and Casual. The latter is particularly the case with the widely embraced “Gig economy” such as Uber and the various food delivery services (all widely loved by Australians). Again, not caused by immigrants however most of these are jobs that Australians don’t want to do and that immigrants have to do.
Turning to Zero immigration, this is a ridiculous idea at best and insane at worst. In Australia, there’s been a long-term downward trend in fertility rates, there was a record low fertility rate of 1.66 babies per woman in 2019. A federal government report into Australia’s future fertility rate projects a drop to 1.59 in 2021. To put it into context, for the population to remain stable without immigration, you need a fertility rate per adult woman over her child birthing years to be about 2.1.
Low population growth or negative growth in high-income countries such as Australia is likely to create social and economic problems. Population growth affects many phenomena such as the age structure of a country’s population, economic inequality, and the size of a country’s work force. These factors both affect and are affected by overall economic growth. In other words, population growth is necessary to continue to raise standards of living for the population.
As to the level of population we can support in Australia, Australia could easily sustain a population of 125 million, five times its current population, without compromising its standard of living. It is likely that its population will double to 50 million in the next forty years on current growth trends.
Japan manages to sustain a population of 125 million with less arable land than Australia and with virtually no natural resources, while maintaining an economy with comparable GDP per capita to Australia’s. Japan has no oil at all. Nor coal for that matter. It imports it all, most of the coal from Australia.
While only 6% of Australia is arable land that is 6% of 7.7 million square kilometres, or 462,000 square kilometres, which is more than twice the size of the United Kingdom, of which only 25% is arable land. Arable land (% of land area) That is a very large amount of land for agriculture indeed.
Australian agriculture is largely broad acre and therefore not intensive. While Australia currently produces enough food for 60 million people there is no reason why it could not double its food production through more intensive agriculture, and expanding agriculture into areas where it is not currently taking place, if the incentive was there to do so. Projections are that Australia will double its food production over the next thirty years to meet growing demand from Asia. Since increasing agricultural production has been the trend in Australia for the last two hundred years there is no reason to believe it will not continue.
Too many chips, too few shoulders.
The zealots hate it when you introduce facts to a debate.
Like Kelly-Ann Conway’s “Alternative facts” – “Australia could easily sustain a population of 125 million, five times its current population, without compromising its standard of living.”
lex is clearly no stranger to ‘Alternative facts’, Selkie.
I don’t agree Selkie. At 125 million we’d have a very low pop density even if we put that population in just 200 km from the coastline around the country. We don’t have to look at agriculture or sustainability with the eyes of our grandparents. For example, look at what the Netherlands produces in a country half the size of Tasmania. California has massive desalination plants, the latest (I think 12th), largest one will be floating off the coast and be solar powered.
Numbers not your forte?
My figures are for illustration purposes. I know Holland is slightly larger than half Tasmania. California now has 12 desalination plants with another planned. 125M pop divided by (coastline times 200km) equals about 18 persons/sqkm, about the same as New Zealand today.
Whenever we talk about population here it’s as if we have to approach it from our grandfathers point of view. We know desalination technology will evolve and be relatively cheap in the future, we also know we need to start re-greening this country. One doesn’t have to look far to find incredible innovation in agricultural practices, Holland and Japan for starters.
The “incredible innovation in agricultural practices” is totally reliant on cheap energy. Just like OZ & USA. And most of the West.
Interesting that you cite Japan & Holland – until the late 20thC both relied on windmills and clogs (geta) to support a population about 1/3 of today.
Edo & edam, not exactly modern.
I think you’re citing them in the 19th century, unlike us they moved on. Unlike us both those countries also still have automotive, aircraft and ship building industries. Holland is also Europe’s largest agricultural exporter!
Yes, so I have noticed, lex!
And I have also noticed the usual White zealot rubbish that spurts out of a number of Australian’s. When you are actually educated in economics and the markets, understanding why things have occurred is not difficult.
I’ll assume ‘lexus’ refers to love of luxury rather than Law.
Both actually.
THE only function of economic forecasting is to make astrology look respectable,” John Kenneth Galbraith 🙂
Your post is replete with racism lex. Leftists who play that card are playing a dangerous game. It seems that you have an issue with Australians too. (Don’t worry, sometimes they even ‘get up my nose’.) Well, if that is the case then the answer to this conundrum should be clear, especially to someone as clever as you,
Now, as far as your comment that:
“When you are actually educated in economics and the markets, understanding why things have occurred is not difficult.”
goes, I hate to be the one to break the news to you lex, but ‘education’ and ‘economics’ and markets’ is absolute non sequitur. Putting ‘education’ with ‘economics’ or ‘markets’ amounts to a clear-cut example of an oxymoron.
A person might be ‘trained’ in those ‘fields’ but ‘educated’ is more of a term reserved for noble pursuits such as medicine or science.
Yeah go on chop a few more trees down, we don’t need them! Build more houses, freeways, schools, hospitals, shops for the mighty God of consumption and whatever you do Grow Grow Grow because MORE is always the answer despite the fact that we have had decades and decades of growth yet somehow we are actually going backwards in our healthcare, schooling and ability for people to find worthwhile, meaningful employment. You might want to start considering a post growth mentality lexus because a focus on growth and more is better has got us to the terrible state we are currently in.
Doesn’t mean it’s not true. And how, pray tell, do you plan to fund all of what you seek with a declining population?
How about corporations paying some tax! You need to get away from your current mindset about where wealth comes from and goes to, the whole system needs to change!
Careful. You are advocating a switch to Socialism!
🙂 I am indeed a socialist albeit an environmentalist first who thinks it would be a fine thing for all other species if humans passed from the earth. As however that is not likely to happen we need to look after each other because we are a social animal and our ills arise from ignoring that. 🙂
You are an Optimist while I am a Realist. 🙂
Ha you have to be an optimist to function currently or we’d never leave off lying under the doona in the foetal position!
Self sufficiency?
Nehru’s model managed to provide for ‘All India’ until the neolib takeover in the 80s.
Didn’t work in India either unfortunately.
dilattantebeth, let me just say that your reply to lex is ‘right on the money’!! I could not agree with you more. Well said!!
I’m a bit ranty unfortunately but I feel so passionately about this. Other more lucid folks say it much better!
You are doing just fine, beth. You are far from being a dilettante. Keep up the great work! Your posts reflect a noticeable degree of perspicacity.
At least you are polite.
🙂
We are nothing like Japan, they win the economy by being techno smart, Australia does it by running down our natural capital! And once that is gone, its gone!
Manufacturing moved out of Australia for economic reasons not due to immigration and its not coming back anytime soon. In short, we priced ourselves out of the market. Not really, we didn’t get clever, we didn’t back ourselves, we didn’t give anyone the choice, we have shthouse “free trade agreements” that get us screwed over. Its a crying shame we don’t lead the world in EVs. We have natural resources, clever people, and access to ports just as a start.. What a missed opportunity! 🙁
Sorry Beth but with Capitalism, the Bottom Line is what matters. Costs need to be contained and Wages are always a significant cost in a developed country. I would live to see Australia manufacturing again but I am a Realist. It’s just not going to happen. The boat sailed 50 years ago and the death knell was the closure of vehicle manufacturing which was on life support for years.
Mmmm the covids of the world may make us rethink that… May..
I would like nothing better than to be proven wrong but I doubt it.
I was referencing Japan’s ability to sustain a large population. You don’t think Australia can change? What is your solution?
Japan’s current, falling, population could not be supported without external inputs, from food to energy to raw materials.
The Edo knew that but Black Ship Perry thought them wrong, hence Pearl Harbour.
And it makes them so vulnerable. We definitely need to be more self sufficient here.
Great thought but how? Saying “we need to” is all well and good but what do we do and how is it funded?
We need to be smarter! We have been the lucky country but our luck is running out. But the current systems are so entrenched I don’t know if its even possible to change…
Mass migration is the misshapen spawn of inbreeding between political & commercial elites.
https://www.blackincbooks.com.au/books/too-much-luck A sovereign resources fund would have been a good idea but we were too dumb for that.
lex, why do we have to live in a ‘sardine can’ like the Japanese? If you like that way of living then feel free to migrate there (if they will let you in), or any number of other places where that is the norm. I absolutely do not want to live like that here. And I am sure that I am not the only who feels that way.
I wonder if the people of Sydney and NSW feel like their standard of living has improved as the population has increased? The increasing number of homeless must be loving it as much as the commuters stuck in the ridiculous traffic. I found the sound that defines Sydney when I visit is the constant ambulances!
I lived there for 20 years. No different to any large city.
The point is that, until the 90s, it was very different – all the ‘benefits’ of a megapolis without the dreck.
Now, not so much.
Depends where you live.
rubbish.
Rubbish yourself. Where do you live?
I worked in Sydney 50 years ago. The place was a nightmare to negotiate then. I can only imagine just how much it has deteriorated since then.
And that makes it a good/acceptable thing?!
I was just pointing it out.
You could probably make that any capital city in Australia beth.
Mmmm definitely there are issues in them all but definitely increasing size exacerbates this. Not toooo bad here in Perth and I’ve not been to Adelaide or Hobart that recently but they used to be quite nice as is Darwin 🙂
Perth is a lovely city! I lived over there in 1968-9, I was boarding in a flat on the Stirling Highway right next to the Rose-Gardens. Then I moved over to Mt Lawley. The beaches were the best I have seen I have seen in the world. (But I was young then!)
Ha the beaches have also aged now! 😉
And it pays to look at why the birth rate is falling, as it does in countries where education levels rise, women realise they have options and also we don’t need 5 kids to collect water from the well and reap the grain, allowing for a few spares. There are also many people now who think it is not a great idea to bring children into the world as it is and also are worried both about the environmental impact and the cost of raising a child! People literally don’t think they can afford to have children yet somehow our standard of living is improving!
You may care to consider the change in expectations between the generations in Australia
The expectation of breeding seems quite ingrained surprisingly even if the numbers have come down.. if that is what you mean? But yes people do seem to want to have their cake and eat it too
The demands of the current Generation (s) to have their cake and eat it too are what I refer to. Doing a comparison between Generations seems to elude people. Ever larger houses, imported cars, overseas holidays etc etc.
Yes its interesting that the blocks have got smaller, the houses bigger (hello suburban McMansions) and the number of people per house is also declining. You know the house isn’t complete without a movie room now! 😉
Anyway that is enough raving from me lexus 🙂 I am not blaming immigration for our woes but I definitely do not support the theory that it is the solution to them! We should be a global citizen which is going to require working GLOBALLY to address the climate conflict refugee situation but not at the expense of our precious biodiveristy and ecosystems which sustain life and should also be respected for their inherent right to exist and flourish!
Beth, I fully agree with you on your final points. This is a Global issue.
beth, please be very reassured that your posts are NOT ‘raves’. You are expressing very sound and sensible views. Of course not everyone possesses the cerebral wherewithall to comprehend good sense when they read it.
Thank you for your reply lexusaussie.
Of course, you are also certainly entitled to your opinion, but please now allow me to take issue with some of the points which you have raised in response to my post.
Like you lexusaussie I am unable to provide a succinct and ‘water-tight’ definition of what constitutes a ‘modern 21st century civilization’. However lexusaussie, I would venture to suggest that what it does not involve is the repression of women by requiring them to wear special clothing, denying them leadership positions in society, or even an education, the imposition of forced marriages, under-age marriages, denying them voting rights and subjecting female children and adolescents to the abominable practice of female genital mutilation, let alone ‘honor killings’. Also the practice of encouraging men to have as many children as possible to display their ‘masculinity’ would not be included either. And those are a just few points right off ‘the top of my head’.
The contents of your fifth paragraph fails to persuade me to retract the use of the term “ghettos”. You are wrong to assert that I have a bias against immigration. I find that this accusation is often leveled by people from a certain section of the left and it reflects nothing more than prim and proper virtue signalling. It is simply ‘water off a duck’s back’ to me.
Not that it is really important, but I also grew up in a very Jewish area. I went to school with Jews, I was fortunate enough to be able to befriend many of them. I vividly recall during my years at primary school in the 1950s that children of Jewish refugees from Europe would come into my classroom and often not be able to speak a word of English. Yet 20 years or so later many of these people were doctors or lawyers.
I have always seemed to gravitate to Jewish people throughout my life as I find them people of substance. They have a great sense of humor and they can talk about more than drinking beer and sport.
Furthermore I have had connections with the Chinese community for more than 20 years. I also find them to be people who are interested in education and matters of substance. I mention these things mainly because people like you like to regard people like me as ‘racists’ ‘xenophobes’, etc. I think that, my CV in that regard, is a little on the weak side.
I do not understand what you mean by:
“The origins of the immigrants change is all.”
I hotly dispute your assertion that:
“There is truly “White Australia” and “everyone else” in any dealings between “everyone else” and Government”
Quite frankly I am tired of this ‘victim-hood’ nonsense that is spouted so self-righteously by sanctimonious ‘leftists’. I did not detect any semblance of ‘victim-hood’ in my Jewish friends whose parents had lived through one of the most, if not the most unspeakable event in human history, that is, the holocaust. They simply got on with living and making a life for themselves. The same could be said for the Cambodian children who I taught as a teacher in high school. They were survivors of the horrific Pol Pot led ‘Democratic Kampuchea’ experiment in human cruelty
Just a quick word on the deportation of those New Zealanders. As I understand it they were all quite violent criminals who deserved to be deported. Congratulations to Peter Dutton for taking that action. (And it is not often that I have a positive word to say about him.)
In your seventh paragraph you suggest, or imply, once again quite erroneously, that I blame immigration for all our woes. You suggest that this is a typically “Australian” view and you associate this with ‘ignorance’. This sentence reinforces the message contained in your post that to be ‘Australian’ and ‘white’ is something to be ashamed of. More pious, sanctimonious virtue signalling. Let me tell you lexusaussie that sort of stuff ‘cuts no ice’ whatsoever with me. I happen to be an Australian (as you can probably tell by my name) and I happen to be white. I could not help that. I blame my parents for that – yeah lexusaussie. It’s their fault!!
I cannot help but make the observation lexusaussie that you have some strongly held views however, you are not sufficiently confident to express them without hiding behind a sobriquet.
In your next paragraph one could be excused for thinking that I was blaming immigration for the destruction of our manufacturing industries. That would be wrong. I blame the adoption of free-market economics for that, pure and simple.
In the tenth paragraph, regarding the erosion of work conditions. I by-and-large agree with you although I would lay a good portion of the blame with the ALP (Alternative Liberal Party).
I am totally unconvinced by your criticism of zero immigration. I have no problems with a declining fertility rate here or anywhere else in the world for that matter; in fact, such a trend is to be welcomed. The future of the planet depends on it. I tend to place more importance on a global view of the environment and as far as I am concerned the planet is vastly over-populated now. The capitalist economic model that relies on endless growth in population, endless growth in profits, growth in sales, growth in the production of pollution and junk, has had its day. Well and truly!!
The state of the global environment is something that you fail completely to address in you post. This is disappointing.
Anyway, good to exchange ideas with you lexusaussie.
“You are wrong to assert that I have a bias against immigration. I find that this accusation is often leveled by people from a certain section of the left and it reflects nothing more than prim and proper virtue signalling. It is simply ‘water off a duck’s back’ to me”
So your desire for Zero Immigration isn’t a bias, you just don’t understand economics or you have a closed mind?
Simply because you grew up in a Jewish area and some Chinese friends you don’t have a WASP outlook? I grew up with all of that and more and still, by choice, reside in such an area. My wife and Children are Chinese. My extended family also has Indian and other Asian members and I suspect I have a hell of a lot more experience in the real world of how immigrants are treated by White Australia than you do teaching High School. I stand behind my statement that there is “White Australia” and “everyone else”. Just a single dealing with Australian Immigration will confirm that. Attempt to deal with any Government Department when you are an Immigrant and see what it is like (particularly outside of NSW and Victoria).
“This sentence reinforces the message contained in your post that to be ‘Australian’ and ‘white’ is something to be ashamed of. More pious, sanctimonious virtue signalling. Let me tell you lexusaussie that sort of stuff ‘cuts no ice’ whatsoever with me. I happen to be an Australian (as you can probably tell by my name) and I happen to be white.”
I am also Australian and White, Sport, but with a substantially different set of life experiences to you. I think you know what you can do with your pious, sanctimonious, arrogant views and insults.
Your arrogant and Nationalist “if you don’t agree with me please leave” comment is typical of the “mighty White” Australian attitude that I referred to. Not all White Australians are racist but, unfortunately, a great many are and some of these use “environmental” and “cultural compatibility” as props to support their racist views. My views have been formed over 60 years of experiencing this behavior from White Australians. Immigration is an easy target.
Your attempts at insults are childish and disapointing but to be expected.
So tanty, tanty!
Just the truth and a fairly mild response to a self righteous individual who couldn’t politely disagree with me as Beth does. Tired of hearing the same excuses that were used in Germany. What’s next? Banning Redheads?
Its a race to see who has the most multicultural experience! I don’t even pretend too but I was raised by an enlightened (this was the 70s after all!) mother who taught me not to judge based on skin colour / eye shape etc. Australia was founded on racism and it hasn’t managed to drag itself out of it yet which is our shame but it also doesn’t mean that all Australians are racist.
I agree all White Australian’s are not racist but sadly a great many of them are. Why is it always White Australians calling for Zero immigration? Why are our Government’s overwhelmingly run by old white men? Why does it take 7 months to process a Visa for a Yank and 43 Months for an Afghan? Why is English the “National language” when neither the Constitution nor Legislation state it as such (its just the most popular)? Why was an incident in my community recently reported as “2 Black African and 2 Australian children”? The list is almost endless.
A lot of it is unconscious racism yet racism it is.
I agree that it is disgraceful that our politicians do not reflect our multicultural make up. I too am tired of it being run by old white men! And Labor did themselves no favours by parachuting KK into that seat either. not quite in line with values!
Offence is not given – it is taken.
O.K. lex, you have got me. I have to concede that my desire for Zero immigration is a bias. You win!! You see through my argument. Yes, Zero immigration certainly does reflect a bias in favor of, if not improving the quality of life here in Australia, then it is at least a move to maintain the status quo. So, I guess I am biased. It is only unfortunate that more do not share that bias.
Now, as far as me ‘not understanding economics’ goes. Well lex, I studied that subject to year 12 level (back in the days when Keynesian Economics was all the fashion. I did so because I wanted a basic background in the subject. I never had no intention of taking that any further as I wanted to study a field that is far more interesting, substantial, rewarding and less subject to fads and fantasies (especially the fantasies). I, of course speak of the physical sciences.
I remember at the time a good friend of mine was starting an economics degree at university. He told me of one occasion when the lecturer warned the class not to take the supply and demand curves too seriously as they bore no relation to real life. What a joke that subject area is!! I will not dignify it by calling it a ‘discipline’. I note that sometimes ‘economics’ is described as being the “dismal science’, practiced by people who know ‘the price of everything but the value of nothing’. While I agree with the latter part of that interpretation, I must say that when I see the words ‘economics’ and ‘science’ used in the same sentence, I want to vomit.
Nowadays we have the toxic poison of free-market economics as the prevailing ideology. This brand of economics has had a corrupting influence on just about aspect and institution in our society and it is destroying the planet. lex, let me be honest with you, I have nothing but absolute contempt and loathing for that economic ideology.
I notice that you go on to choose to denigrate my background and speak contemptuously of me apparently because my background does not mirror yours and I hold views with which you do disagree. Well that is what I expect from those with a superiority complex. Let me just say this, you are not the only one with a wife who has a Chinese background. Quite frankly, I think that it is fabulous that you have the family background that you describe. I very sincerely congratulate you on that.
I have had a little experience in helping people from an Asian background deal with Australian Government Departments. It was a lengthy process. But lex, even for a white-skinned, WASP, Aussie racist like me, dealing with government departments can be a challenge. (By the way lex, I am NOT a protestant, I am an avowed atheist.)
Let me be quite honest lex, I do not care whether you are white, brown, black or blue. As I have said elsewhere, I judge people by the content of their character, not the color of their skin or nationality. I find even the suggestion that I might feel superior because I am white to be a total embarrassment. People of your persuasion really need to take a good look at themselves and stop talking down to others who, at least on the surface, seem to disagree with you.
I also invite you lex, to consider the possibility that some of the migrants who have come here in recent years have not always made a positive contribution to the place (to put it mildly). And yes, lex, I know that many of the original migrants who came here in the first place were convicts and other undesirables and ne’er-do-wells. But we cannot change that now.
You finish by talking about my “attempts at insults”. I know lex, being insulting was never my strong point; as you so correctly infer, I was never successful at it. My strong points were always logic and reason (which are of course, absolutely essential in the physical sciences – good thing you chose economics).
Cheers.
“I notice that you go on to choose to denigrate my background and speak contemptuously of me apparently because my background does not mirror yours and I hold views with which you do disagree. Well that is what I expect from those with a superiority complex”
Insults and denigrating your background? You were the one who accused me of “More pious, sanctimonious virtue signaling” and went on to provide your “I am not a racist CV” to try and support your own superiority complex.
“People of your persuasion really need to take a good look at themselves and stop talking down to others who, at least on the surface, seem to disagree with you”.
People of my persuasion? What persuasion would that be? I am quite happy for people to disagree with me as long as they do it politely. Talking down to others? You may care to read your own posts Sport.
As to Economics, I am not an Economist however my knowledge exceeds Year 12 that’s for sure. My field of expertise is Money and IT (where a great deal of logic and reason is required).
I agree that not all migrants have made a positive contribution to Australia and the same can be said of native born Australians. I don’t differentiate is all. Clearly some do though. I also agree with your views on certain migrants but they are not the majority.
My wife and family have seen and experienced a lot of racism in this country and virtually all of it was from “White Australians” which I find reprehensible in the extreme. One such instance resulted in a formal apology from the Vice Consul of the Australian Embassy.
“My strong points were always logic and reason (which are of course, absolutely essential in the physical sciences – good thing you chose economics).”
You finish with a contemptible insult, of course. Yet further evidence of a superiority complex where none is warranted.
In business, there were two types of Clients that I refused to deal with: Engineers and Teachers. I recall why now.
lex, we could go on like this ad infinitum. However, the trading of insults is becoming rather pointless.
It seems that you and your wife have had some really unpleasant experiences with some very nasty people and as a result, you seem to see all ‘white’ people (including me apparently) as being a threat.
When I receive a post I generally respond in a like manner. If someone implies that I am a racist (and I can pick up the subtleties) then usually things will become a little heated (as you have no doubt noticed). I am genuinely sorry to hear of the racist insults that you and your wife have experienced.
After reading some of your other posts lex, I am starting to wonder if there might not be some other issues involved here, so I might thank you for sharing your views with me and withdraw from the fray (unless of course there is a good reason to resume our ‘friendly but forthright’ exchange).
Robert, I agree. I dislike having “wars” with anyone but I will give as good as I get. We both got a little too heated for my liking.
Immigration is a very, very personal issue for me. Without it I would never have met my wife!
While we have indeed, had our fair share of encounters with some nasty people, the straw that broke the camels back for me was in March 2020 when we returned from China on a flight between Guangzhou and Sydney. I simply had to sign a form and was waived through as normal (as were all “Australians”) . My wife, however, was subject to over an hour of interrogation and health checks (as were all the other Asian people) by ABF. They advised it was necessary because of COVID until I pointed out that a Virus doesn’t care what race someone is and threatened legal action. My wife and I had been to all the same locations etc.
Combine that with a rise in Anti-Asian sentiment in Australia due to Trumps rubbish about COVID and the rubbish media coverage in Australia of the Riots in HK (we were present in HK and saw a very different perspective) and I have had quite enough.
I am quite protective of my wife and family and won’t apologize for that.
I do however appreciate your kind words and views (even if we don’t agree on everything) and thank you for sharing them with me.
Thanks for that message lex.
Apologies for not getting back sooner but I have been undertaking duties this morning under the supervision of ‘she who must be obeyed’, who by-the-way has a Chinese background (was from Shanghai).
I could have written the first sentence of you post myself.
I can understand your frustration with the incident you describe in paragraph three. I must admit that I would probably just shrug my shoulders and then forget about it. There is no sense in working yourself into a state over those things. It doesn’t do any good.
My wife has a nephew who moved to New York some years ago from Shanghai, at the instigation of his wife. I think they are now regretting that decision. Personally I do not see any real ‘racist’ problems here in Australia as far as the Chinese community is concerned but from what I can gather it is not so pleasant in America because of the influence of Trump (and probably the pandemic).
I understand that you would be quite protective of your wife and ‘full-marks’ for that. I really respect you for saying that. I feel the same way about my wife.,
I don’t take our exchange all that seriously, (seriously!!) That sort of exchange helps me to ‘hone my rhetorical skills’, but I am really glad that we are able to come to this position.
Just as a by-the-by, I was thinking about your comment in regard to teachers. I didn’t get into teaching until I was 35. I am now 73. I was most unimpressed with what I found. I remember saying to my lab tech (I taught chemistry) once, that she ought never to think of me as a career teacher but rather as an angry parent and member of the public who has infiltrated the system as a fifth columnist to observe the craziness from the inside. So lex, your comments were very mild about teachers compared to mine.
Anyway, as my Jewish friends would say, “Enough already!!”
Take care and very best regards to you and your family.
Thank you kind Sir!
https://www.theguardian.com/food/2021/may/08/if-we-want-to-save-the-planet-the-future-of-food-is-insects 🙂
I know. I have eaten insects in the Food Stalls in Wanfujing Street in Beijing. 🙂
We have a way to go here in the West with our own food biases 🙂
Yes but there are still some things that I won’t eat. I will try them but some I just can’t get past even after all these years.
I definitely could not go for jellied or indeed any duck feet!
Chicken feet here
Not me.
I’ll eat anything that doesn’t have a face and identifiable parents.
This is just another comment full of bile and hatred of Whites and Europeans which just turns people against the new cultural Left. Immigrants come here because opportunities abound here for wealth creation and something a bit above mere survival for the low aspirational among our immigrants who lack sufficient education and entrepreneurship. The new cultural Left seeks to do little more than turn people against each other, to foment hatred among poorer resentful immigrants of whom there are many against older whiter European Australians due to the exploitative work they are lumbered with, stir up hatred between ethnic groups – Arabs versus Israelis, Muslims versus Jews/Christians.
Australia has an abundance of unnecessary “skilled” migrants and temporary migrants. Many skilled migrants, usually the 457 class, simply pay thousands for an agent to process their claim in the Home country and a sponsor here and other hangers-on, fit the criteria of an occupation deemed skilled by the Department of Immigration of which there are over 400 (there used to be 6), arrive here and wait their turn at citizenship all the while they work in occupations, industries and for employers that have little to no relation to their chosen skill. I work for a major public service department and there are any work colleagues who arrived here under the skilled migration regime, buy houses or property ( I can’t similarly go to their countries and buy property there) and most are invariably engineers, accountants or academics. Yet they are doing base level to mid-level administrative public service work. There was no point to their selection for migration to Australia on the basis of skill because the skill they possess is not being utilised in Australia and the occupation they are working in in Australia is not in short supply in the workforce – most reasonable people can do it and they don’t even need senior high school education, they just need to be able to do basic operational, clerical-admin. work which requires literacy and numeracy of a low to moderate level. I laugh at the term skilled migration and look around my work place and my department.
Sorry, that should be 600 former occupations deemed skilled not 6.
My views are not “full of bile and hatred of Whites and Europeans”, just the racist ones of which there are plenty. I am White and I acknowledge that we are a racist country is all. To first resolve a problem you need to recognise that there is one. That is one of the major issues that I have with Australia. We refuse to acknowledge when we are in the wrong. It doesn’t seem to matter whether it is Foreign Relations (China and France) , our treatment of Indigenous Australians or our military committing war crimes in Afghanistan, we simply refuse to acknowledge that we are in the wrong.
As I said to Beth:
Why is it always White Australians calling for Zero immigration? Why are our Government’s overwhelmingly run by old white men? Why does it take 7 months to process a Visa for a Yank and 43 Months for an Afghan? Why is English the “National language” when neither the Constitution nor Legislation state it as such (its just the most popular)? Why was an incident in my community recently reported as “2 Black African and 2 Australian children”? The list is almost endless.
A lot of it is unconscious racism yet racism it is.
The 457 Visa is gone now but I had quite a lot of people from India on those Visa’s working for me in Australia as part of an outsourcing arrangement and I can categorically state that people with the skills needed were not readily available in Australia. These were definitely not as you describe “simply pay thousands for an agent to process their claim in the Home country and a sponsor here and other hangers-on, fit the criteria of an occupation deemed skilled by the Department of Immigration of which there are over 400 (there used to be 6), arrive here and wait their turn at citizenship all the while they work in occupations, industries and for employers that have little to no relation to their chosen skill”. I have no doubt that there are those that play the system but I haven’t encountered them. Citizenship takes years and is not easy BTW.
Clearly you have an issue with some of these people. May I ask did one of them take a position you would have liked?
I have never, ever worked for any Public Service so I don’t know what their policies are but there is usually a reason why they are bringing in 457 workers. I won’t give you my view on the Public Service and what should be done with it as a whole as I am pretty certain you would be offended.
If you have a poor opinion of public service it reflects, poorly, on you.
You are building a tone poem of yourself that is unattractive in its very banality.
Settle Petal. Again, my experiences with the Public Service as a whole have never been positive. It’s not against the workers, just the structure. Ministerial alignment of PS Departments is an unmitigated disaster. IT, for example, is siloed for each Department rather than running a Shared Services arrangement for base level services. This leads to high costs and poor outcomes. Further, some State Government Departments (in some States) do not operate during hours thar reflect the needs of their customers (ie the Public). Projects change as Ministers change which just drives up costs and time frames. The Opal Card in Sydney was a classic case.
Not much offends me let me assure you and I have a similarly cynical and negative opinion of the public service as you undoubtedly have though for utterly dissimilar reasons but I am surprised by the peculiar nature of your rantings. You seem unnecessarily upset over so any things and it is manifesting in many different ways. You are all over the shop. You elaborate and obsess on how and where Australia is racist but so are many other countries and not all White European ones. Racism is manifested unconsciously or occasionally in many people all over the world. I don’t think I need to elaborate but Japan long used to oppose Australia’s White Australia policy but was itself brutal in its treatment of people in the Chinese territories it occupied in the 1930s and 1940s and Japan won’t even allow non Japanese born people citizenship even if they are married to a Japanese born person. I don’t accept and have never accepted that Australia is more of a racist nation than anyone else despite the obvious and well documented nature of our treatment of First Nations Peoples and our European history in general. Australia has probably been the most successful multicultural nation in the world but excessive population growth and immigration will put this to the test on many fronts. Saying that Australia is a racist country is as honest and as profound as saying that going to the toilet gives off an odour or not washing makes you smell or not brushing your teeth is unhygenic or drinking too much is bad for your kidneys. Its meaningless!! There is no absolute truth to it and comparisons rule it out as it is a value judgement without any value.
You come across s a new cultural Left person yet you say you had Indians working for you. So you are an employer? Or were they co-workers? I can’t understand. What skills could these people have possible had that were not available in Australia? Most of Australians have got high school education, university education or trade training. Some like me have all 3. Did no Australians take up the work positions, with you as their employer or conduit because they felt the pay was too low or the work dangerous, dirty and insecure? I can’t understand. I am clear in my work dealings. I realise citizenship takes years but permanent residency does not.
The issue I have with overseas born work colleagues is that they are not working in the occupations or industries to which they are educated, skilled and trained in the fields I mentioned! They are therefore not benefitting the country as the work they are currently doing is not a skilled category even though it is important – it is not something a local born person could not do in their many thousands. The public service is not importing 457 federally, States are different, but it is not difficult for a person to have one of the 400 occupations and apply for a visa to come and work and live in Australia of which the 457 is an important and much abused component. State agencies are importing many workers because so many Australian born have left the industry due to lower conditions, falling workplace and work standards and slow wage growth. I really feel sorry for young people – especially those who lack parental support which was not required in significant number in my day.
It’s obvious that Lex, like his namesake Luthor, is just a cellar dwelling contrarian who claims all sorts of things as validatory for his RWNJ views.
As you note, all over the shop and thus necessarily self contradictory, the sort of word salad that Trump peddled.
My “rantings” are focussed on Australia because I am a Citizen. I am well aware that other countries have racism issues but I am not a Citizen of those countries. I love Australia but we have a lot of faults that we constantly refuse to acknowledge. These faults cause friction not only internally but with other countries unnecessarily. A major fault is we refuse to acknowledge when we are in the wrong. It doesn’t seem to matter whether it is Foreign Relations (China and France) , our treatment of Indigenous Australians or our military committing war crimes in Afghanistan, we simply refuse to acknowledge that we are in the wrong. It is the same with Racism in Australia. It exists, we know it exists but we deny it. The first step in solving a problem is first admitting there is one.
As to my leanings, I am more of a Centrist with slight left leanings. Not everything on the Right is bad and not everything on the Left is good. I retired in my early 50’s in 2015 and the example I provided was in IT. There were simply no Australian’s with the necessary System and Programming skills available for what we required. I was their Boss not a Co-worker.
PR also takes time and is not straightforward. It depends on their Visa and how they are applying. It can be quite difficult.
Your experiences differ from mine obviously as regards skilled migrants. I have no idea why the PS would be doing this from the information that you provide.
I note that you say we (Australia) priced ourselves out of the market in manufacturing. You display an incredible ignorance of economic history and the nature of manufacturing work here in Australia and for work in general. When Australia embarked on an era of large scale car manufacturing from 1948, car manufacturing was a low cost industry, along with any others like media for example and film making. Australia was beholden, no pun intended, to companies like Ford, GM, Toyota AND mITSUBISHI. They decided to pull the plug on car making here. Some Holdens are even made in Germany now, a country with comparable or higher labour costs than here. It was merely at the lower skilled end of manufacturing that Australia was disadvantaged and this is a process that has affected many European nations, the UK, the US therefore Australia is not on its own. The quality of our cars at the cheaper end will decline. Australia built its own merchant shipping until 1976 – no more subsidies there but the dairy industry never did without govt handouts. Australia could have dome many good things with manufacturing long term but the Fed. Govt aided their decline and their shift to cheaper offshore production without penalty and all the while these industries and their captains deprived their companies of investment and long term business strategies. Employers are their own wort enemy because while they are putting other people down, their own workforce down, other Australian workers down like you do (are you from the Daily Telegraph? – it sure sounds like it. Perhaps the AFR), putting down other companies, putting down their own workers – they are all the time weakening their own position and weakening the economic strength and potential of this country. I resent your stated implication that Australians are rubbish. Our politicians and business leaders are rubbish. Workers built this country, more than business.
Well explained, though I’d have preferred some paragraphs.
“You display an incredible ignorance of economic history and the nature of manufacturing work here in Australia and for work in general. When Australia embarked on an era of large scale car manufacturing from 1948, car manufacturing was a low cost industry, along with any others like media for example and film making. Australia was beholden, no pun intended, to companies like Ford, GM, Toyota AND mITSUBISHI. They decided to pull the plug on car making here.”
The Australian Car Industry started mainly assembling CKD Kits of Fords in 1925 and Holden in 1926 respectively. Both companies were subsidiaries of US Companies. They both eventually progressed to building US models with changes to suit Australian tastes. Aside from some models, most were always derivations of foreign designs which we were indeed, beholden to. After many years, they switched to Badge engineering of models from various other companies
These manufacturers were heavily subsidized by Federal and State Governments throughout their history and was never a “low cost industry”.
Again, our market is incredibly small, volume wise yet has a massive number of different Makes and models. The destruction of Australian Car Manufacturing is down to us. Increasing R & D costs, falling sales, increasing labour and other costs. The falling sales were largely down to a change in taste with Australian’s preferring European and Asian built cars for their higher quality and “Wanker status” (although I dispute that German cars are high quality given my experience) along with a switch to SUV’s.
Australia has simply suffered the consequences of a change in Government policies and consumer tastes as well as Globalization and a shrinking market. No manufacturer will make cars in one country if they can be made, shipped and sold for less cost from another country. I don’t agree with it but I understand it. It is called Capitalism which apparantly the West holds in high regard.
No I’m not from the Daily Terror but I do have an extensive business background and understand why decisions are made. Sometimes I condense things down otherwise I would have to write War and Peace all the time.
I’m Australian and have made no such implied statement that Australians are rubbish. We do have a racism problem and some cultural issues is all and we pretend that we don’t. My background originally was Working Class too BTW but my field was, simply put, Money and IT, at Executive/Senior Executive Level. I worked my way up from the bottom too at various companies, industries etc and was certainly not born with a silver spoon in my mouth.
Not another “I worked myself up from the bottom” story. I’ve heard this bs all my life and every time from a fat cat manager trying to show how he, unlike everyone else, has “earned” his/her money.
KMA Oldie. What is your background Sport? Do tell. This should be interesting.
Lexus, I was a cleaner during my twenties. I was in the public service from my early thirties for the next 30 years, surviving by moving through about 6 different depts all at the lowest or second lowest level. To keep my sanity, for the past 20 yrs I did some part-time study in business and business IT which only served to help me understand why almost every manager or IT person I met (including consultants) was either a thief, a liar or a scoundrel. However, it had the enormous benefit of giving me the opportunity to meet and make friends with several international students (Chinese, Taiwanese, Indonesians, Malaysians, Filipinos, Africans) and help them with their English. I am currently retired, living on a basic pension with the help of the Salvos.
Firstly, thank you for your honesty and courage to provide your background. Others don’t have that courage.
Really sorry to hear about your current situation. While I am not in the same situation, I am a Carer for my lifelong best friend who is in a very similar situation as you. I assist him wherever he will allow me to.
If I may ask a Respectful question? Why did you remain in the PS for so long if you were not advancing?
Lexus, thanks for the reply. I posted a rejoinder the other day but it seems to have disappeared although there was nothing offensive in it. From what I remember, the gist of it was:
No need to feel sorry for me. I’ve chosen my lifestyle and don’t regret any of it. I’m a hands-on person and have always preferred working at the lower levels where I know exactly what I am doing. Mixing with international students has been the best education I ever had and has taught me how to live well within my means.I also mentioned that having found it difficult to readjust moving interstate a few decades ago, I have enormous respect, admiration and empathy for anyone moving from an Asian culture to an Anglo Australian one. What was pretty painful to me was seeing such bright young students struggle to survive while watching lazy slobs I worked with getting paid to do nothing. The treatment these people have got from both governments and employers has been disgraceful. I also said that often the worst abusers of these students can be their own communities who take advantage of their naivety and lower language skills and cheat them whenever they can. That’s about all I wanted to say.
Especially when said Knob capitalises Boss – just to show that he is a very superior person, his face is pink, his hair is sleek, he ponces here week after week.
I also capitalized Co-Worker but that doesn’t count does it Your Highness? And your background Sport? I can surmise but I would rather hear it from you.
Beyond your meagre comprehension.
So Sulkie not Selkie is it?
Play nice!
Not possible for him. Never contributes just takes pot shots when he disagrees with someone.
A couple of things here to round off the debate. I never said that German made cars were of higher quality. Not necessarily. I just said their labour costs were comparable to Australia’s or higher. Further there are only about 20 countries in the world that make cars and virtually all of them require a significant amount of government support. That is a fact. Some low cost 3rd world countries bend over backwards to entice car manufacturers to produce in their countries and they pay 0 to small tax.
I have to insist that car manufacturing was a low cost industry from the 1940s and earlier as you suggest. Even Gerard Henderson said so and he is no friend of Australian industry and Australian workers, Cars became more expensive with cramming more features and technology into them – like our computers and mobile phones. We were left behind despite our skills in assembly and engineering. Personally I will not buy a car made in Thailand or China. Howzzat!! Of course our tastes changed and production failed to keep up – smaller cars, cars for the growing number of single people rather than larger and family cars but this was also a feature of the US. The UK has been losing cars to foreign imports for nearly 60 years now but they focus on quality. What do you want? To import everything? All what you say proves that it is our business leaders and governments that were rubbish – never our workers whose pay packets have failed to keep pace with CPI inflation and general asset inflation and cost of living rises for the last 45 years.
This Capitalism you say is not all it seems when you look a little behind the facade. It is really rent seeking and this applied to not only the car industry but many primary industries as well and of course our toll road network. Capitalism?? Rubbish. It is pure and simple rent seeking. Always was.
Bernard you cannot include Singapore in your comments about Asian attitudes to our use of foreign workers. Singapore has workers from Bangladesh, India, China, etc. who legally receive 10 to 20% of the median wage in Singapore. At least our basic wage/conditions system provides some protection for foreign workers. Our problem is not the level of wages and conditions it is the illegal exploitation of some foreign workers by some employers.
Sadly the idea that basic wages/ conditions prevails is a fallacy. Fair go conditions are dead for those employed thru labor hire.
Few Australians realise that Bridging Visas BVs mean no safety net- it is work or starve! Labor hire factory conditions are a text message at 11am alerting a worker to a pm shift if lucky. Talk to refugees and new arrivals stalled on BVs for reality of living on casual short hours multiple jobs. Talk to them about working in fruit and veggie shops small business cafes for NO wages on the promise of a job when they can show their work.
Australia is a segmented nation where the middle and professional classes have no idea of life at the other end especially for new arrivals. Immigration/ Home Affairs are taking 5-10 years to process applications leaving people on Bridging visas where they are cheap fodder for jobs at conditions no Australian would do.
Workers lives are not improving- manipulating visa categories to keep a residual impoverished workforce eventually breaks standards down for all. This is a complex multifaceted attack to drive down wages and conditions, remove rights and destroy A Fair Go Australia
I would say MOST employer
More Government sponsored wage theft, pure and simple….
Working in this field of imported labour I have a clear understanding of how it applies.
A visa holder comes out to Australia and gets a job fruit picking, they are not always paid award rates as they are paid piece rate.
If they combine with a compatriot they may make a decent wage and then the split it 50/50 .
Once that done they either go to accomodation supplied by the employer (at) exorbitant rates, or go to hostel where they once again pay exorbitant rates.
They work under a contract that means they MUST.work on a farm ex amount of time before they get second year visa.
The farmer/orchadist knows this and exploits it to the max ( dishonest ones anyway)
The worker also might get caught up in a scam that has bottom feeders exploiting them by “actin” as agebts.
Yepp this is right up Morrison and the Nats field, it is totally the way this mob likes it @ exploitation, corruption,dirty dealings.
All you gotta do is revisit Dutyon and his exploitation of au pairs and “heling” Gillian Mchlachlan (AFL) with assisting him getting them here.
There is more to this, but this is just a small insight into this dirty low act of bringing in foreign workers
What you describe there waylaider, seems to me to simply be free-market capitalism working in precisely the way that free-market capitalism is meant to work.